Is this anti-semitism?

Julia Ioffe immediately went to "oh yeah well where is Omar's criticism of Saudi influence HUH" on Twitter and deleted it when she was immediately corrected by Omar herself.

― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Wednesday, March 6, 2019 5:29 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The irony is that the reason people get the impression that Omar "focuses" on Israel and not other things is that her critics focus on her focus on Israel and make lots of noise about it, whereas there doesn't appear to be an equivalent level of pro-Saudi noise/outrage when she criticizes SA (although they clearly target her in other ways). It's precisely the criticism of her statements about Israel that magnifies them so much.

Fifth-columnism not what's happening, though. The criticism is that the ruling class's 'support for Israel' is to their own ends (anti-Muslim fervor, imperialism, the military-industrial complex, etc.) to the detriment of the public good of Americans.

this may be so, but there's certainly some 'fifth-columnism' involved - that jewish-americans are actually working against US interests to support Israel.

not really, Congress is like 5% Jewish. The loudest voices for Israel have been WASPs for two generations.

People who automatically equate "American use of Israel as a client state" with "Jews" are kind of telling on themselves.

The idea that taking issue with support of Israel means one is necessarily criticizing Jews as Jews ignores the last few decades of political developments around the United States’ relationship with Israel. “Supporters of Israel” hasn’t been a synonym for “Jews” since the 1980s. I have to repeat this: In the United States today, a “supporter of Israel” is much more likely to be an evangelical Christian Republican than a Jew.

tbc "impossible to have a conversation about" is not synonymous with "we talk about it all the fucking time"

― Mordy

most of the things people talk about all the fucking time are things i find it basically impossible to have a conversation about

example: steely dan

So for me I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is ok for people to push for allegiance to a foreign country. And I want to ask, why is it ok for me to talk about the influence of the NRA, of fossil fuel industries, or Big Pharma, and not talk about a powerful lobby that is influencing policy.

So in context she is clearly talking about AIPAC, not Jews in general. Pretty unobjectionable when you read the whole thing imjo

it's being spun all over as 'coded wording' which is fucking absurd. I've seen people on social media basically copy and pasting the same 'explanation' as though if they pass it around enough it will become true.

the most grotesque part of this is that a bunch of evangelical christian theofascists, who devoutly wish to bring about a rapture in which, in their eschatology, jews will descend to the fire pits of hell, are lecturing me, a jew, on what constitutes anti-semitism.

i know that is just one part of the dynamic but it's a key part

ppl completely ignored the first paragraph of her speech too

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic

Part of the problem (which Beinart fails to address) is that Zionism is a less stable concept than first meets the eye. As far as I understand it, it doesn't have to be synonymous with ethnic nationalism and anti-Palestinian sentiment, which is how most of its critics view it.

Honest question from someone trying to learn more about this, is there a better (or more up to date?) than Beinart's on Zionism?

Urgh, better book on Zionism I mean, there are probably better books lol.

Part of why I'm normally hesitant in this debate, I think I've said before (maybe even in this thread), is that "zionism" sometimes gets used in squishy ways that do actually bleed into anti-semitism (i.e. the idea that "Zionists" = the shady Jewish international banking cabal controlling the global levers of power, as opposed to just people who support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state). I don't think Omar's remarks really crossed that line though.

Perhaps worse than Ilhan Omar comments is the reaction to it. The dubious claim that I keep seeing over and over is that America can't have a debate about Israel without being accused of anti-semitism when clearly, for fuck's sakes, legitimate criticism of Israel is aplenty in American media. It is widely present in both social and traditional media. Just search "Netanyahu" in the New York Times search bar and it's there. I mean the present situation is proof that these things can be discussed. All of that is happening, what? 5 years after the Iran deal happened despite the lobbying of AIPAC and Netanyahu? You know that thing that was praised by many as one of the great Obama foreign policy. No one is being silenced over this.

I think it's tough to legit criticize Israel when a ton of fellow critics are hardcore anti-Israel/anti existence/anti-Semitic, and also when tons of supporters are right wing assholes who are probably also anti-Semitic. Leaves very little room for reasonable positions in the middle, even when someone offers seemingly reasonable positions, which puts everyone on edge.

Just search "Netanyahu" in the New York Times search bar and it's there

yes, they criticize netanyahu. at the same time they write those weird headlines about palestinians spontanesouly dying

Part of the problem (which Beinart fails to address) is that Zionism is a less stable concept than first meets the eye. As far as I understand it, it doesn't have to be synonymous with ethnic nationalism and anti-Palestinian sentiment, which is how most of its critics view it.

― pomenitul, Thursday, March 7, 2019 12:12 PM (seven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i have not had any luck trying to get this across to my palestinian and other friends and colleagues from the arab and muslim world. the nuances of zionism as an historical phenomenon do not interest them; i think they have a point that "zionism" has come to be synonymous with the policies and philosophy of the present-day israeli state and that's what it will continue to mean going forward.

i just don't know....

Zionism always envisioned the establishment of a homeland in Palestine for all Jews. As it pursued this goal it constantly evolved and I think it is legitimate to conclude that the present state of Zionism is embodied by the present state of Israel. Whatever philosophical differences exist within Zionism today, those differences can only be realized within the state of Israel. No Zionists seriously propose destroying Israel and starting over. Under the circumstances, it is hard to separate the two.

i mean, "communism" had many and contested meanings before 1917, even before marx iirc, but for the past century it's essentially meant the ideology characteristic of the soviet state and others who sought to emulate it. it would be pointless to try to go back to an earlier meaning, unless you're writing a history book.

not sure if that is entirely analogous but i don't think it's inapposite.

what a fucking joke

https://www.thedailybeast.com/meghan-mccain-breaks-down-in-tears-over-ilhan-omars-scary-israel-comments

love when these dumb ass WASPs tell us what anti-semitism is.

― affects breves telnet (Gummy Gummy), Thursday, March 7, 2019 8:14 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's odd that we defer to the Marxist definition of, say, socialism, when Marxism has been only one strain among many in British socialism. Not that I disagree with the marxist def per se, it just seems out of place for how the word 'socialism' has been used in the UK for the past century.

“If what Ilhan Omar were saying for the past few weeks were said by a white Republican male, how would you be reacting to it right now?”

we fucking wouldn't

xpost

i think the right-wing "defers" to the marxist definition of socialism

bernie et al certainly don't. they're part of an older, broader tradition.

like the President of the United States and Republican members of Congress post shit that signals anti-Semitic tropes on a daily basis, Dems are so fucking stupid for publicly calling her out and proving how right she really was

NEW: Among the "Jewish groups" Trump cited calling for Rep. Ilhan Omar's removal from the Foreign Affairs Committee is a hate group with neo-Nazi ties https://t.co/CbylLLxRIB

— Emily Kopp (@emilyakopp) March 6, 2019

the replies to this tweet are the first time I've noticed people explicitly replying for the sake of creating "the ratio," with most explicitly invoking it, thus completing that idea's inevitable evolution from amusing internet aside to cynical trolling tactic

oh it's been a thing for quite a while

Chaser: Our photo comparison showing how Fox & Friends altered an image of Steinberg they showed on-air about six weeks later. pic.twitter.com/E1y8sz8WoN

— Matthew Gertz (@MattGertz) March 11, 2019

ugh I hate the fact that I really do have a problem with omar's tweet (and am happy to see her statement, which indicates to me that she gets what people bristled at) and yet to talk about it in public fuels a bad-faith campaign against her by people who are only too happy to complain about the baleful influence of monied jews (sometimes referred to as "the media" or "the banks" or "globalists" or "george soros" rather than "AIPAC")

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, February 13, 2019 12:39 PM (three weeks ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Three-weeks ago me exceedingly otm I'd say

This Chelsea Clinton thing is really confusing me.

Getting into that David Hirsh article Mordy linked to way upthread. Some very interesting stuff in there - Livingstone Formula etc.

I have a question. Can anyone give me a take on that article by Mearscheimer and Walt where they put forward the idea of ' the lobby'. I honestly don't know American politics well enough to gauge how accurate their position was/is or who they are etc, or whether (thread title).

He doesn't drink anymore but I'd buy him one.

https://loudwire.com/black-sabbath-geezer-butler-2015-arrest-punching-a-drunken-nazi-bloke/

What a bad ass.

(Not being sarcastic btw.)

This hasn't gotten much play bc it's not surprising to hear a member of the GOP-Nazi Party read Mein Kampf in order to compare treacherous Democrats to treacherous Jews. This is what they do because this is who they are: an imminent danger to all of us.https://t.co/jmKTQpQWfa

— Eli Valley (@elivalley) March 26, 2019

i don't think valley is in any way hyperbolic here btw.

wonder if Dems are gonna call on him to apologize the way they did Ilhan Omar

/crickets/

icymi

Schumer Compares Ilhan Omar To Trump As Top Democrats Echo GOP's Criticism At AIPAC https://t.co/lx5BsVK5Jl

— Richard Kim (@RichardKimNYC) March 27, 2019

"Trump referred to Israel's prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, as "your prime minister" while speaking at the Republican Jewish Coalition in Las Vegas, Nevada."

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-netanyahu-your-prime-minister-republican-american-jews-2019-4

^Haha Ross Perot moment. "You people -- wait, shit..."

Late arrival here, just found this thread after reading the commentary on Corbyn's alleged anti-semitism in the AOC thread. Overall this kind of discussion is where ILE shines, imo. It's mostly moderate, nuanced and is not one-sided, ill-advised attempts at gatekeeping aside.

I'd say this recording is worth noting as a new low in US conservatives' efforts to exploit the antisemitism issue:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/pompeo-pledges-not-to-wait-for-britains-elections-to-push-back-against-corbyn-and-anti-semitism/2019/06/07/dfeaa180-9c27-4495-9322-3d16b7d1541a_story.html?

I wrote about racists using anti-Semitism as a shield and how flimsy and shitty it is https://t.co/oiRjlk6J3p

— Talia Lavin (@chick_in_kiev) July 17, 2019

good piece

Jews are not trees, not animals, not mute props to use as cudgels in a war of escalating rhetoric. We do not need to be spoken for, we who have been here since before this country was a country, and want to remain, and know no other home; we are not waiting for your apocalypse.

Liz Cheney and Meghan McCain have volunteered, unasked-for, as blonde Christian Loraxes

Damn, that was good.