Is this anti-semitism?

i mean, for whatever it's worth, the Uyghurs live in a part of the world recognized by nearly all governments as part of the PRC. to say the least, the same is not true of the west bank/israel. so even if we were to decide israel behaves "better" than some of the worst geopolitical actors (to which in most contexts i'd say, so what?), the legal and practical framework is different.

My intended upshot was that the US is often viewed by critics of Israel as enabling Israel's behavior but it's worth thinking about the ways that it has restrained that behavior as well. Your point is taken that they're not a traditional separatist group (I used it as shorthand but that was sloppy) but they have been involved in a violent struggle for national rights with Israel for many years. At the very least they want to separate from Israeli military control.

Yeah, I'm not sure I see your point as relevant to mine here? Like if I were making a legal case for Israel to mistreat Palestinians based on their territorial status you'd be right but I'm just pointing out that when dealing with a military conflict plenty of nations unrestrained by a major superpower (or with a different power patron) often act far worse than Israel which suggests that the US may be a modulating influence.

i called him and asked if he had any jews in his office. the communications director declined to comment.

o_O

can't imagine why

oh, lol. it probably helps to know that i'm one of his rare jewish constituents and identified myself as such at the beginning of the convo.

like a lot of GOP politicians, when my representative attacks anti-semitism or cheers on israel, he's not really trying to appeal to people like me, but rather to evangelicals for whom a certain variety of "support for israel" is a key component of their political worldview.

that said, when i've called before to criticize his invocation of "soros" as a bogeyman, noting that it's anti-Semitic, my rep's spokespeople have tried to reassure me that he isn't anti-Semitic by referring to his "unwavering support" for israel. it's their only go-to.

ugh I hate the fact that I really do have a problem with omar's tweet (and am happy to see her statement, which indicates to me that she gets what people bristled at) and yet to talk about it in public fuels a bad-faith campaign against her by people who are only too happy to complain about the baleful influence of monied jews (sometimes referred to as "the media" or "the banks" or "globalists" or "george soros" rather than "AIPAC")

Mordy's OTM that money isn't necessary to explain the support of the US for Israel. Even eschatological reasons take a back seat to naked realpolitik. I would question whether any of that can be called philosemitism, though - if we can separate opposition to Israeli politics from antisemitism we can perhaps separate support for Israel from pro-Jewish sentiment. The American right can be both pro-Israel and anti-Semitic.

American "philosemitism" probably complicates things more than I intended bc what I really meant was more of philojudaism. "we can perhaps separate support for Israel from pro-Jewish sentiment. The American right can be both pro-Israel and anti-Semitic." it can also be, complicatedly, pro-Israel and pro-Judaism in that they feel strong affinities to Judaism as a religion, the Jewish People as a mythohistorical Biblical nation, and Israel as a representation of the mythic Hebrew - innovative, educated, industrious. I take your point to mean (and I agree) that this affection does not necessarily extend to the 80% of American Jews who vote Democratic.

It is interesting, though. I think people often get the money-influence thing the wrong way around. Financial ties to Israel follow from ideological positions, rather than the other way around. I just wanted to point out that the rightists I've met who hold Israel in high regard are usually anti-semitic too. They admire the impression of a hardline state dedicated to its self-defence, etc., but that's because they see the world as nations in a darwinian struggle which we should be more proactive in.

(I'm maybe too drunk to discuss such nuanced and delicate topics but...)

I saw that contradiction in my Grandad who, after leaving the RAF worked for BAE for a long time, in Israel and (for about 20yrs) in Saudi Arabia. And he was always very impressed by Israel, and Israeli pilots, talked approvingly of the six day war etc. He considered himself very pro-Israel. He was also very pro-Arab - in his will he left me his copy of the Koran which he'd been given by the Saudi royals. And he was very 'anti-nazi', for lack of a better word - I first saw Shoah on his recommendation, and he would talk about the horror of the holocaust and the necessity for an Israel for the self-defence of Jewish people.

But he was also an anti-semite. He would avoid and complain about supermarkets which were 'run by Jews', so you would get ripped off if you went there. He would talk about how jewish people looked out for their own, and talk about tormenting the 'Old Jew-boy' in the village he grew up in etc. I guess I just mean that I don't understand anti-semitism, but I can see that it's not incompatible with being pro-Israel.

Fucking hell.

'More tombs desecrated in France before antisemitism protests':

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/19/antisemitism-protest-marches-to-take-place-across-france

Maybe 30m from my apartment, last week someone spray painted "truie juive" on a wall; "truie" means sow, as in female pig (if you care to see, it's one of the pics on this page). My neighborhood is almost entirely Muslim, for what it's worth.

Jewish cemetery desecrators tend to be white supremacists (which isn't to say we should minimize antisemitism when it comes from other quarters).

There’s a tradition of Muslims and Jews in Europe working together on funerary things because their needs and timings are so similar.

Back in December, when the Jewish cemetery of Herrlisheim was desecrated, they also found the number 14 – code for the 'fourteen words', a neo-nazi credo – and this time around, some of the inscriptions were in German.

In Alsace, yes, I would expect neo-Nazis.

In Paris, I would not.

i think "pig" is a particularly muslim insult (for obv reasons)

I think it's worth being specific and talking about arab antisemitism rather than 'muslim antisemitism'

idk euler's particular area's demographics but "pig" is a muslim insult more than a particularly arab one (arab christians eat pig) and antisemitism exists in non-arabic muslim societies as well as arab muslim societies. but maybe i'm misunderstanding your point?

I disagree. While French Muslim antisemitism is especially prevalent among the Arab community, white converts tend to ferry the same kind of discourse, and at least two notorious antisemitic murderers were of Sub-Saharan descent: Amedy Coulibaly, the kosher supermarket shooter, and Youssouf Fofana, who tortured and killed Ilan Halimi.

xp

the antisemitism in iran seems of a piece with arab antisemitism but I'm not aware of substantial histories of antisemitism amongst the countries with the biggest muslim populations, at least no more than most of the west

the residents of my quartier are mostly African, probably about 50% Maghrebi (Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian) and sub-Saharan (Sudanese and Somali mostly). In France they're called "arabes" but they're not Arabs in the usual English sense.

I meant, 50% Maghrebi and 50% sub-Saharan African. There's also a non-trivial Tamil (Sri Lankan refugees) community right here who are Muslims as well.

I don't think descent is relevant so much as your social networks. I don't know much about these incidents but a quick google is showing both these people were born in paris, so I'm not sure what you can infer about the countries their parents came from

Well if we're going to start talking about 'Arabs', descent does matter, don't you think?

If your point is that, as a general rule, the Arab community – which makes up the majority of Muslims in France for obvious reasons – tends to disseminate antisemitic discourse at a greater frequency than, say, the Pakistani community in the UK, and that this majority status has a bearing on how other Muslims view Jews, then I would agree.

well, this is a v thorny question involving language, culture, class and religion. people have moved to western countries from islamic countries with relatively little antisemitism and their children have grown up to become antisemitic. there's a lot of factors in play there but it's not just islam

i think "pig" is a particularly muslim insult (for obv reasons)

― Mordy, Tuesday, February 19, 2019 4:53 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

German 'schwein(hund)', Dutch 'zwijn', French 'truie' have been insults not (exclusively at least) linked to insulting Jews for ages though. Not sure if it in fact is a particular "muslim" insult tbf.

It's not just Islam, no, if only because there are different manifestations of Islam (religion invariably overlaps with culture and is informed by it), but in France it tends to be a rather marked correlation.

xp

does it matter what religion this racist dickhead might or might not have? genuine q

britain has a long history of pig-based abuse and provocations too, from muslim sepoy rebels being sewn into pig skins before being hanged, to endless bacon banter with jews and muslims, to people throwing pigs heads through muslim families' windows

France too. So much so, in fact, that from a 21st century white supremacist perspective, pig-related insults are primarily aimed at Muslims rather than Jews, which is why Mordy's inference is likely correct (in this context, at least).

I was thinking about calls that Jews are "descendants of apes and pigs" (which is a specifically Muslim insult) but now that you guys mention it I do remember occasions where I've seen it used by Christians against Jews

I mean, Ed Miliband had the press bantering him about awkwardly eating a bacon sandwich in a way that would not have happened if he wasn’t Jewish, I think.

Not sure how anyone living in Paris could think, despite the things you see and hear the gilets jaunes doing, that there aren’t any Neo-Nazis there. Or that anti semitism in France among white French people is less marked than that of North African French Muslims when more than ten million people voted for a candidate that said France wasn’t responsible for deporting Jewish people to their deaths in the Holocaust. Or indeed, this: https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/medias/la-ligue-du-lol-etait-aussi-antisemite_2062237.html

oddly I've seen more coverage of this than when jewish graves were smashed earlier this month in north manchester. it happened a few years ago in a different north manchester cemetery (in the end I think it turned out to be two 13 year olds from a deprived part of north manchester) and there was immediately a big show of solidarity and fund-raising from local muslim groups, who you could be forgiven for thinking were the only ppl who cared

xp to gyac:

Barring their historical core, Le Pen voters are generally willing to overlook the RN's longstanding antisemitism if it means kicking out the Arabs. David Rachline, a French Jew and the current RN mayor of Fréjus, is a good example of this cognitive dissonance.

My neighborhood is almost entirely Muslim, for what it's worth.

― L'assie (Euler), Tuesday, 19 February 2019 15:29 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

quite little tbh, Euler

unless there's an answer to my upthread question that i'm missing

Does it not matter whether certain communities are likelier to foster antisemitism? If it turned out that the desecrators were Romanian (which is unlikely given the context, but I digress), it would certainly matter to me, because our community has a history of turning a blind eye to antisemitism and even encouraging it.

xxp yes I think they are on the record along with various other fascists across Europe as being robust supporters of Israel.

But I just don’t believe that they have stopped being anti semitic; a western country with an atmosphere that is intolerant of Muslims is almost never going to be one that’s safe for Jewish people either. See also: the various attempts (& in denmark’s case I think it’s actual law) to get kosher and halal slaughter outlawed under the guise of safeguarding animal rights. The answer doesn’t lie in fighting racism with more racism, is my long-winded point.

I completely agree, gyac.

it matters bc different kinds of antisemitism require different efforts. attempts to make circumcision or kosher/halal illegal require one set of efforts (that may involve allying with the muslim community), whereas antisemitic murders from the north african community may require a totally different set of efforts and alliances. obv it matters to political interests as well (no one wants *their* political side to be discrediting themselves w/ antisemitic acts) tho that piece matters less to me personally.

I'm sure there are neo-Nazis in Paris, but the anti-semitism I experience (well, not against me, I'm not Jewish, but against friends) is from les arabes.

who are not actually arab. but whatever.

ok pomenitul but does that matter to the solution, to combatting it? maybe it does! but... maybe it doesn't? maybe antisemites just need to feel deeply ashamed, no matter who they are. i realise i'm thinking simplistically but i feel like this is a trap, getting led down a rabbithole of who did it, what was the colour of their skin, aha it's just as i suspected, they always do this etc.

xxp I think this is an interesting point. If they were Romanian, would you have the fash making veiled and not so veiled threats to/about the community? If they were Romanian, would you have people dissecting problems you probably understand yourself 10000x more, usually coming to the solution “it’s bad and (by implication) so are they”? Would people even give a fuck about your thoughts about the roots of and solutions to the problem?

As Mordy says, the different ways that antisemitism is grounded in different communities means that the cultural context of each act matters, if we seek solutions to it.

TH, that's the French, Republican way of looking at it, and on one level – that of an impartial ideal – it makes perfect sense. But I'm personally not convinced that the absolutist, 'we are all one' approach to law and citizenship is the nec plus ultra of anti-discrimination (at the other end you've got the US model, with its own unique set of drawbacks, so I'd argue for something in between whenever possible).

If they were Romanian, would you have the fash making veiled and not so veiled threats to/about the community? If they were Romanian, would you have people dissecting problems you probably understand yourself 10000x more, usually coming to the solution “it’s bad and (by implication) so are they”? Would people even give a fuck about your thoughts about the roots of and solutions to the problem?

I mean, people usually don't give a fuck about what Romanians think about anything, unless it has to do with the Roma, so definitely not.

By the same token, I would say the most useful solutions are going to come from French Muslim communities. The usefulness of white French (and non-French) gentiles applying racism to the issue is very limited.