White trick-or-treaters in blackface: C/D?

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Ethan, I know you like to think of yourself as ILE's Champion Of The Black Man but I'm not going to play Bigger Thomas for you.

Dan (Excruciating Back Pain) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:21 (eighteen years ago) link

dan are you cool with white kids using the n-word? is that ok cuz we're all people and should be treated the same?

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:22 (eighteen years ago) link

Trife, is why I said you can't separate motivation from the offense. Ignorance of historical connotations is of course rather stupid, but still, no image is racist de facto, only with the context. A white kid dressed up as a black sportsman is offensive to those who associate it with minstrelsy, but what we're discussing is - is that everybody?

(xxxx-post)

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:22 (eighteen years ago) link

dan for fucks sake im not saying what you should or should not be offended by, but youre crazy if you dont think a huge majority of americans would find this inexcusable

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:23 (eighteen years ago) link

>I observed (w/ some mild hostility) another white kid wearing a Negro League baseball hat!<

You know, I've been at ballparks where these are given away to all kinds of people...

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:26 (eighteen years ago) link

no image is racist de facto, only with the context

http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/houtsone/lakupekka.jpg

in which actual context is this not offensive?

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:26 (eighteen years ago) link

i wore a wig as my halloween costume (not my natural hair) so i could look like an evil lady from "the ring" :((


and she was japanese, rather than chinese :((((


also i was crawling out of a "sony" brand TV which is a japanese TV manufacturer when i really should have done with say "Konka" brand, just so that i don't appear to have stereotyped Japan with the Sony brand when actualy it just happened to be a famous TV brand used to signify my cardboard box to be a TV. :((((((((((((((

i was a racist dick :(

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:28 (eighteen years ago) link

My cousin dressed up as Michael Jackson once. He wore "blackface" (this was back in like '86, keep in mind). No one seemed to find it offensive in, well, New York City. Probably because 8 year olds trying to be their idols isnt' really that offensive??? How is dressing up as a rape victim on Halloween even remotely comparable to a kid dressing like his favorite athlete? I mean my main problem with this is like, Ben Wallace, fucks sake kid come on now.

Also wtf kind of person gives someone else shit for wearing a Negro Leagues hat?

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:28 (eighteen years ago) link

No offense, ethan, I see your side of the argument but I think that if a "huge majority" of Americans would find a kid dressed up as their favorite athlete on Halloween "inexcusable" then A) there'd be pretty much no argument on this thread B) it wouldn't have happened.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:29 (eighteen years ago) link

and my white friends wear tshirts with chinese writings on them :((


and i sometimes wear tshirts with english writings on them :((((

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:31 (eighteen years ago) link

brits who are baffled by apu on the simpsons

I don't know that we are. Why do you think this ethan?

Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:32 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm baffled by apu on 'the simpsons' because he is a racist caricature out of 70s british sitcoms.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:34 (eighteen years ago) link

come on mark, a majority of us find apu inexcusable

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:34 (eighteen years ago) link

are you two being sarcastic?

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:34 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh Mark there was a thread in which a group of Brits who I actually cannot recall right now went nuts over how "racist" Apu obviously is, I do remember that thread, he's right. Note that he's saying "Brits who..." which does not imply "All british people," so don't get too bothered.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:35 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm more baffled by the lack of white people living in Springfield

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:35 (eighteen years ago) link

It'd be a lot easier to have sympathy for Andy and Ethan's argument if one of them wasn't prancing around with the white man's guilt ONLY TEH BLACKS CAN LIKE TEH NEGRO LEAGUE HAT bullshit and the other one wasn't comparing Ben Wallace to Hitler.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:39 (eighteen years ago) link

flip a coin, stevem.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:40 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah honestly xpost. kind of losing the perspective a little innit!

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:40 (eighteen years ago) link

roflz

jdubz (ex machina), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Also wtf kind of person gives someone else shit for wearing a Negro Leagues hat?

Honoring the Negro Leagues is obviously a good and necessary thing, but again, there's the context. It sort of irritates me in the same way as the NYFD hats worn outside of NY by people who would never be firefighters in a million years. I need to elaborate here...

Hopefully I can explain more and answer other stuff when I'm off work.


Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:41 (eighteen years ago) link

in which actual context is this not offensive?

Er, I wasn't saying that image was not offensive at all in Finland. What I was saying is that the lack of black population in Finland made people ignorant of the connotations of such images. Sure, most folks would recognize it as crude caricature of a black man, but they didn't probably know about the history of such racist images, so they didn't see it that much more offensive as a caricature of, say, a Frenchman with a big nose and a beret, or an American with a cowboy hat and a revolver. So, while the image probably offended, say, Africans visiting Finland, it most likely wasn't that offensive to the majority of people because they didn't know the historical context of it.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:42 (eighteen years ago) link

So much for your beloved socialist education system, faggo.

jdubz (ex machina), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:44 (eighteen years ago) link

Also, Tuomas, most "cowboys" were black or hispanic. And "Africans" and "African-Americans" have very different ideas of self concept.

jdubz (ex machina), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:45 (eighteen years ago) link

"Unforgivable" is a silly word to throw around if the tot is just emulating a star ("but Dad, I want to be Ben Vereen when I grow up!"), but it probably would be a good idea to let your kid kid know WHY people might not appreciate it.

miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:45 (eighteen years ago) link

Is blackface inherently offensive when it is used as a dramatic device (of questionable effectivenes, granted) towards some kind of racial understanding?

q.v.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005UWAB.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

http://www.millionaireplayboy.com/images/blackloiscover.jpg

http://www.impawards.com/1986/posters/soul_man.jpg

elmo (allocryptic), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:46 (eighteen years ago) link

Next Halloween, I'm going as Lawrence Taylor.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:47 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm sure *some* people in finland may have had *some* knowledge of the outside world before it had a black population.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:47 (eighteen years ago) link

Soul Man rubbed me so wrong. CURSE YOU, COMEDY CENTRAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jdubz (ex machina), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:47 (eighteen years ago) link

Maybe next year I'll pull a White Chicks and dress like Paris Hilton or something.

Candicissima (candicissima), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:47 (eighteen years ago) link

Honoring the Negro Leagues is obviously a good and necessary thing, but again, there's the context. It sort of irritates me in the same way as the NYFD hats worn outside of NY by people who would never be firefighters in a million years.

Yeah, god forbid people's fashion choices go to support worthy organizations instead of purchasing their 17th Yankees hat (now in Lime Green!)...?

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:48 (eighteen years ago) link

http://movies.nnov.ru/Covers/Weekend%20At%20Bernie

This movie offended me because the two hapless black voodoo victims did not end up teaming up with the lily white protagonists against the wicked creole voodoo! That would have made this so much better.

jdubz (ex machina), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:49 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm sure *some* people in finland may have had *some* knowledge of the outside world before it had a black population.

Hence my usage of words "most" and "majority".

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:50 (eighteen years ago) link

I actually I'd have given those kids a "WTF?" and maybe some shit on blacking their faces to be Ben Wallace. Boo fucking hoo if they don't have black faces they're not authentic. They're probably not 6'whatever either. And last time I checked most of the zombies aren't actually undead, even if most of the slutty nurses are actually sluts.

Candicissima (candicissima), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:52 (eighteen years ago) link

Spike Lee has shown us that even making up black people in blackface can be considered offensive!

http://www.cinema-city.com/bamboozled.jpg

elmo (allocryptic), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, god forbid people's fashion choices go to support worthy organizations instead of purchasing their 17th Yankees hat (now in Lime Green!)...?

New Era gets the money in both cases.

Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:54 (eighteen years ago) link

The thing is, I can understand why someone would be bothered in some way by a kid doing this, and maybe give them some crap or crack a joke about them, but in what realm is this similar to actual blackface or minstrelry? Isn't it a good thing that a kid, of any race, looks up to this person and wants to emulate them? He's not making fun of him or ridiculing him, he wants to be him and dress like him! I'm not sure how that can truly be considered offensive. This isn't even on the same spectrum much less "part of the same issue," and I think that claiming it is is a rather massive disservice, the same way certain ILXors screaming sexism every time someone disagrees with them is a rather huge disservice to a cause. Get one perspective.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Andy, who the hell do you think New Era licences those things from? God? Steinbrenner? Ben Wallace?

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:55 (eighteen years ago) link

http://www.blackamericaweb.com/resource.aspx?id=17634

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:56 (eighteen years ago) link

Ghost Dog

TOMBOT, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:57 (eighteen years ago) link

Also, Tuomas, most "cowboys" were black or hispanic. And "Africans" and "African-Americans" have very different ideas of self concept.
-- jdubz (dr_...), November 1st, 2005 3:45 PM. (ex machina) (later) (link)

are you trying to say "africans" are also faggos who love their socialist education systems?

ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 15:59 (eighteen years ago) link

But in an interview on Friday with The Associated Press, Mr. Fox weighed in, noting that he himself had grown up with the comic books, in which Memin, which made its debut in the 1940s, is portrayed as lazy and mischievous.

The stamp shows a "character very loved in Mexico and that has absolutely nothing discriminatory about it," the president said. "Frankly I don't understand the reaction."

...

In May, Mr. Fox initially refused to apologize for a comment stating that Mexicans cross the border to take jobs that "not even blacks" want. The comment led to a meeting with the Rev. Jesse Jackson and an eventual rapprochement.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 16:00 (eighteen years ago) link

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/2203001011.08.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

TOMBOT, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 16:01 (eighteen years ago) link

i wasnt comparing a kid blacked up as ben wallace to a kid dressed hitler, i was comparing two offensive costumes!! ghosts are scary, hitler is scary, you can kinda see how some fucked up kid might draw the conclusion that hitler would make a good costume, but it would offend a lot of people, even though halloween costumes are about scaring people!! its baldly disingenous to pretend that i was trying to say that admiring black athletes is like the holocaust or whatever the fuck yall are doing- like i clarified above, offensive in practice not intent

_, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 16:02 (eighteen years ago) link

It'd be kinda funny if he just found Ben Wallace really scary (but not because he was a black man).

It's making me wonder if you were to ask people what are the first three physical 'characteristics' they would associate with Ben Wallace, one of the three answers would be 'dark skin' or similar. And whether that is wrong and the sort of thing to be discouraged (skin colour tending to be one of the first 'characteristics' when Caucasians describe non-Caucasians).

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 16:04 (eighteen years ago) link

http://www.segabastard.com/db/tom2.jpg

jdubz (ex machina), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 16:05 (eighteen years ago) link

http://www.bethpagemassage.com/newsite/images/mud_pack.jpg

jdubz (ex machina), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 16:05 (eighteen years ago) link


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