Rewrite Woody Allen's "why is life worth living?" speech from "Manhattan"

yeah isaac kinda comes to the same conclusion at the end of this little monologue which leads him to take action for the first time. and it's too late because he is a blinkered douche. kinda the point guys!

maybe -- but not the point of the thread, which is emo+++

I haven't seen the movie in years, I was answering to Ned rather than criticizing it.

haha emo in finding itself the point of any given subject non-shockah

would have thought people > art?

-- That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, September 24, 2007 1:06 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

I'd rather live for sex and touch and tears and love and camaraderie than for any artist I can think of.

-- Tuomas, Monday, September 24, 2007 1:07 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Oh well sure, all those things are otm but I cannot personally underestimate the real joy I feel when art and music moves me in ways I don't really understand.

And sometimes, people don't say or do the right things, or at least the things you want them to say and do and sometimes art does. I don't think there's anything wrong in recognising that.

i know that when i'm over-relying on these things something's a bit wrong. when i was a teenager music was pretty much *everything*. it wasn't all bad but i was making up for other things that weren't there.

yeah i am just defending this monologue's use in the movie, not in this weird thread

Never understood the placement of Sentimental Education in this. I think Woody is fronting like he's highbrow, and prefers Madame Bovary like everyone else in the universe. "Shopping and adultery" >>> "shopping and minor archaic French politics."

xp

When I was a teenager girls were everything. And I would certainly have tried to impress them with shit about Joyce and, iirc, Kafka.

This reminds me of Jimmy Boyle's books. Now, obviously, doing sculpture wasn't the one thing that stopped him being a number one thug and as he found out, the realities of live can't be overcome by art alone but it certainly helped him see beyond his personal experiences and I think art has done that for me on many occasions.

I don't think I over-rely on them or I would kill myself if I never saw Picasso's ceramics again but it certainly makes for a nice afternoon.

quitney and j0hn d be on a nick hornby tip here

Sentimental Education is a rather more mature piece of work than Bovary though

low blow

xpost

If I knew anything about nick hornby I might be insulted but as it stands acrobat might as well have said "you dudes sound like Zwoilatz the Unfortunate"

Nick Hornby's main moral "... then I realized that listening to music and stuff was lame and we got married and were properly happy. THE END" He was the Judd Aptow of the '90s.

Maturity is counter-revolutionary!

Err ... well, yes, more mature and more finely wrought, and I actually sometimes wish it were still the standard for older men now to write grand S.E./Dance-to-the-Music-of-Time books about the milieus of their younger days (if only so we'd have more interesting cultural continuity), but ... well, basically Bovary has slightly more shopping

Hornby is disdainful of pop culture, though – or, rather, pop culture's ok as long as it affirms the Importance of Art.

well, basically Bovary has slightly more shopping

Somebody give this man tenure!!

(acrobat: if that's Hornby's point, then it's hardly what I'm saying - only that, y'know, the adolescent urge toward seeing art as the thing which can be elevated in importance above all matters human & social [not only adolescent though lol, I think Flaubert believed exactly that] is hardly the last stop on the line)

what he said

Flaubert's also tracing how adolescent virtues decay, and how adolescent virtues reveal themselves as rather ordinary longings when maturing.

"slightly more shopping" = high-level Marxist/materialist analysis

I jus read

None of the above. Artists overrate art as a reason to live.

-- Aimless, Monday, 24 September 2007 05:15 (9 hours ago) Bookmark Link

through

co-sign with aimless even though I feel bitter about it

-- J0hn D., Monday, 24 September 2007 14:07 (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

and my kneejerked.

there was this mad as a box review of that simon reynolds post punk book. it's main arguement was that the post punk period was only of any importance because of the Rock Against Racism movement and the damage this wrought to the National Front. it probably wasn't mad as a box. that's unfair. very unfair. i have not read Flaubert but i have read some nick hornby. this is proably bad, right? anyway, surely "art" can be solidarity as well as the other stuff? it can be communication and community cos "art" is made by people and consumed by people and er stuff. is that... adorno? i don't know. maybe this is just about Prefab Sprout. "somethings hurt more than cars and girls"... right?

i think that was that crazy trot ben watson, reviewing grimey simey.

'madame bovary' is part (start?) of (basically) art for art's sake, or that's how he went down in the UK. perfection in art -- formal perfection -- is all. and that mindset is adolescent or at least cosseted.

but there are other types of art, that maybe connect with life and lived experience more. but even still the idea that those things -- things 'about' life -- make life worth living seems to me almost a paradox?

Like The Beautiful South?

why not.

hmm i think i am misinterpreting a little. i think maybe "art" could be thought of like a tool, it's far better for doing somethings with than others. and if it makes you happy isn't that a reason to live? this kind of makes everything a hierachy, which seems wrong. like the smiths lp = 12 points of happy but getting amrried = 100 points or something. i am now thinking of that scene in children of men where clive owen meets his cousin with all the art and then um...

is adolescent pleasure really so bad? hmm i think i am still misinterpreting.

i think of needing reasons to live as a bad thing. like, if you're at the point where you need to count or name things that make life worth living -- not a good sign! and if all you can come up with is not so much art, as specific art-works, then YAAAOOOW. and i think woody is playing us in the film, or owning up that he's played himself and that what *really* matters is the teenage piece of ass he's somehow acquired.

but this thread doesn't carry that narrative function, as it were.

I dunno. It feels like there is a hidden suggestion that you dig and discover some more elemental truth about yourself as you get older. Which seems kind of scary and reductive from where I am sitting. Like I'd rather transformation rather than discovery, maybe. And just the possibility that art or whatever can actually be transformative rather than merely a placebo for your hormonal agonies is kind of cool. Maybe that's all it is, kinda cool.

woops that isn't a reply to quits last post

i agree with that, which is why i think making a list of art like woody does is lame. because famously art is not transformative for woody -- it was only transformative when he was young. there are a couple of exceptions, like the stupid 'swedish movies, naturally', like wtf, all of them? consecrating the ephemeral as capital-a Art, that's the thing i'm talking about.

consecrating the ephemeral as capital-a Art, that's the thing i'm talking about.

could you explain this a little more. the only woody fiolm i've seen all the way through is Radio Days oddly.

BUNCH OF CULTURAL REFERENCES... ANNOYING NEW YORK REFERENCE... 17-YEAR-OLD CHICK I'M SCHEMING

-- That one guy that hit it and quit it, Sunday, 23 September 2007 20:35 (Yesterday) Link

loool

I think art vs. people life is a false distinction, because obviously in real life you don't usually have to choose, but I do think it's sadder if it's only art that gives you the reason to live than if it's only people. It's like the classic scenario where your house is burning, and you have to choose whether you save a priceless painting or your cat.

Also, lets not forget that in many cases art is a collective experience: movies, gigs, dancing, etc. Often it's hard and pointless to make the distinction between "art experience" and "human connection".

The Only Thing Worth Living For ... http://youtube.com/watch?v=qWyBxrZLwtE

cats arent people, tuomas

Basically, I love art and when I feel low and people can't reach me - and obviously as quit it says if you're at the point where you need to count or name things that make life worth living -- not a good sign! - but when I am at that point then I do find that art (by which I mean music and film and architecture) does offer me a way back to feeling human again. Having recently watched my father pass away I have to say I found the ability of some art to do this for me extremely helpful.

He hated Woody Allen films incidentally. But loved trad jazz. So you see they could have found something in common through art!

you guys upthread are being ridiculous, the speech clearly lists a bunch of social/personal things along with art and whatnot

but hey obv life would be better if art and movies and music didn't exist and we all just sat around a big table enjoying each other's company

tuomas is totally otm; u guys are all weird for trying to separate out "art" from "people" or whatever

"whaling, naturally"

LOL

BUNCH OF CULTURAL REFERENCES... ANNOYING NEW YORK REFERENCE... 17-YEAR-OLD CHICK I'M SCHEMING

― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Sunday, September 23, 2007 4:35 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I do still need to read Sentimental Education

I hate this thread.

Aimless IS otm, and that's the whole point of the scene. His listing his favorite artwork is just a parlor game, no more reasons to live that Mary's "Academy of the Overrated." It's exactly the same noise. So that's why when he gets to the point in his list where there's an actual person, he has an "OMG!" moment and goes running down the street.

Only he's STILL wrong, because his impulse is to go try to suck some more life out of someone who has everything ahead of her, instead of taking stock, admitting his soul-crushing vapidness, and swallowing a whole bottle of seconal.

Kids, I'm so glad you understand the pathos at the heart of Manhattan, but please stop reading it into everyone else partaking of my Madlib, thanks.

I suppose I did just say it's a parlor game, didn't I?

"partaking of my madlib"

lolcats, naturally.