Is this anti-semitism?

it's striking how intelligent all of corbyn's critics are

you're the one who revived the thread with a commentary about British politics, Mordy!

I care about my Jewish friends and loathe anti-semitism; please don't tell me or others who is allowed to answer you on British political topics where you lack information and are seeking clarification.

Hamas and Hizbollah only got called 'friends' in a single meeting where many groups came together for peaceful discussion; it is part of a long-standing British legal and political tradition where one's opposite counsel/elected official in council chambers and Parliament are addressed eg. 'my right honourable friend', 'my learned friend'. British Tory politicians tried to cast aspersions on Corbyn for this but it got zero traction, probably because of this very old tradition.

like i'll agree 100% that ppl are cynically using charges of antisemitism to try and smear corbyn for electoral gain. that doesn't mean the charges are foundless (tho like i mentioned i think it's more that corbyn doesn't mind antisemites than that he personally dislikes jews).

suzy do you think corbyn would've referred to bibi netanyahu as friends?

i mean with all due respect it's so obvious to me how your opinions on these topics are driven by political necessity it's kinda lame to have to point out that he didn't refer to hamas as his friend because of political tradition.

I think a lot of the arguments about this particular event on social media etc have been fruitless b/c it's really about trust, it's not necessarily that Corbyn's critics object to him going to this event per se, but they don't trust him when he professes to believe that anti-semitism in labour is a serious problem and he is determined to work with the jewish community, and when they see him go to an event held by a group that has downplayed the significance of left-wing anti-semitism it confirms their belief that he doesn't *really* mean it?

so there are these arguments where ppl defend Corbyn on the basis that he never held up Jewdas as being representative of the jewish community as a whole, or delving into exactly what kind of position Jewdas takes on certain issues don't really schange anyone's mind because it's more about a general lack of trust in Corbyn b ased on his entire career and history rather than this one particular incident - I don't think there's any quick fix, just Labour and the left constantly showing that they do take this issue seriously over a long period of time

xp

My opinions are not at issue here. I'm sorry you don't like my answer but that's the answer you're getting.

If Netanyahu came to a meeting like the one I referenced above, he too would be called 'friend'.

lol ok when corbyn refers to Likud as "our friends" i'll accept your point

Tomorrow evening it will be my pleasure and my honour to host an event in parliament where our friends from Hezbollah will be speaking. I’d also invited friends from Hamas to come and speak as well. Unfortunately the Israelis would not allow them to travel here as well so it’s only going to be friends from Hezbollah. So far as I’m concerned that is absolutely the right function of using parliamentary facilities to invite people from other parts of the world so that we can promote that peace, that understanding and that dialogue.And the idea that an organization that is dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people and bringing about long term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region should be labelled as a terrorist organization by the British Government is really a big, big historical mistake and I would invite the Government to reconsider its position on this matter and start talking directly to Hamas and Hezbollah, that is the only way forward.

again this is what you'd expect from an anti-imperialist who sees these groups as potential allies. it's not antisemitic imo at core. but i don't believe this is an honorific argument.

don't you only refer to them as your right honourable friend if they're from the same party as you

just to spell it out - he's explicitly advocating on behalf of hezbollah and hamas - so claiming it's just a procedural thing is disingenuous or ignorant.

Corbyn is actually into the resistance and was into the 'RA tbh. It's funny seeing people tie themselves into knots to explain these proclivities away.

It’s polite, and I took him at his word when he explained.

but is does seem to have killed some of the momentum in dealing with the genuine anti-semitism on the left?)

I think this specifically is why Momentum put out the statement they did, and why Jon Lansman and Rhea Wolfson (both NEC members) have spoken out yesterday about the need for robust action. Supposedly Jennie Formby has been tasked with overhauling the compliance process and leading on this too. If anything comes of this, let it be solid action on this.

Lansman is particularly interesting because while he and Corbyn are long term allies, he has been critical of him (deservedly so).

His relationship with Milne has been less than comradely ever since, boiling over again when he remonstrated with Corbyn and his aides about their handling of Labour’s anti-Semitism scandal. Lansman is praised by Labour moderates for his role in patiently explaining to Corbyn both what anti-Semitism is and why it is a problem on the left, and for ordering comrades to stop using ‘Zionist’ as a term of abuse. Not everyone in the leader’s office agreed.

(From https://life.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/letting-the-hard-left-off-the-leash, bit of irony when you look at the byline lol)

and when they see him go to an event held by a group that has downplayed the significance of left-wing anti-semitism

Hi Soref, you might want to look at the Jewdas article I posted above - this is really not who they are, it’s how they are painted by a dishonest right-wing blogger because it helps fit the “Corbyn slaps The Jews in the face” story.

Let's make something clear: we do NOT believe accusations of antisemitism in Labour and the left are nothing more than smears. We have questioned the Jewish establishments cherry picking of antisemitic incidents to suit their agenda.

— jewdⒶs // יידהודה (@geoffreyjewdas) April 3, 2018

AF, Haaretz is not a politically neutral site. their primary political tenet is opposition to the occupation and they more or less let that drive their politics domestic and foreign.

Corbyn will get there in the end.

Labour's Jewish vote fell when a two-state solution became part of its official policy and manifesto, under Ed Miliband.

xps yeah, I should have put "*perceived as* downplayed the significance", I know their position is more complex than that.

I’d be interested in hearing more of the complexity - I’m aware I’m in a bubble, but I’ve not heard anything to guide me away from their own view of themselves as the scourge of anti-semitism on the left.

O no a politically non-neutral site o no

don't act dense u understand 100%

soref's point about gathering momentum is a good one. you would hope that real action does happen now. they say mcnicol barred the institution of the chakraborti reforms. I'm not sure how much that is true, and how much is convenient scapegoating but lets hope formby can get her teeth into refreshing compliance and clear some of the backlog of cases. mcdonnell was making some positive noises too

re: complexity

In a statement last week, Jewdas accused the Board of Deputies, Jewish Leadership Council and the Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) of “playing a dangerous game with people’s lives”.

Allegations linking Mr Corbyn to anti-Semitism were “the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party”, it said.

I can see how some ppl might interpret this as playing down the significance of Labour anti-semitism, but I agree it's misrepresenting them to suggest that they think the whole thing is a smear conjured up out of thin air

Well Corbyn is useless at anything to do with PR and the media, idiotic is a fair criticism, except this WAS a personal thing which got picked up by Guido Fawkes.

― Buff Jeckley (Tom D.), Wednesday, 4 April 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Its not that he's useless at PR/media - its that he is not even trying. As someone pointed out someone from the Lab centre-right would do a cynical photo-op with a more 'mainstream' Jewish group. Corbyn isn't - and he has got this far w/not playing that game. Why would he start now?

I read a couple of accounts by pro-Corbyn labour ppl at the passover and Corbyn was invited and fully engaged for the duration of the ceremony. That sounds far better to me than "listening to concerns". You know the lot that listen to concerns, don't you know? And where that has got us to.

i didn't see the headline but i did look at the jewdas website yesterday and they didn't seem militant to me

― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

more just snarky and irreverent

― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

He gets one thing. *Beetroot emoji^

yes i only understand one thing about the history of radical left-wing movements in jewish history unlike you brilliant labour supporters who are all suddenly experts in the nuances of the jewish community and antisemitism

mordy did you see the Jewdas guide to combatting anti-semitism?

Never mind all that, how about opening a newspaper or two?

if he was really there in just a personal capacity why do any of us know about it??

xp

i personally know the guy who designed the mazel tov cocktail design they're selling on their website (tho we had a falling out a few years ago and have not spoken since). this is not some new phenomenon. i know these ppl (tho mostly the US contingency). i'm not choosing sides by saying they're out of step w/ most practicing jews. they say that themselves - that's their value. it's just not a great way to address concerns that most jews have when you hang out with a group that is hostile to most jewish community values. esp since so much of this discussion breaks down into "i dislike these jews because i don't like their position on israel" vs "i like these jews because i like their position on israel." it's asinine on both sides and corbyn is just playing that game not doing some brave new thing to address antisemitism or whatever.

(yes i saw the guide quite a while ago when it was first being passed around. iirc it was basically decent tho i disagreed w/ quite a few things in it.)

personally i feel much more at home with a group like Jewdas, but I realize my views are not particularly representative. I just think that a large proportion of Jews in the diaspora don't feel represented by or affinity with the mainstream orgs you mentioned, especially Jews under the age of like 50

the seder was obviously a political event i mean c'mon no matter who broke the story you don't invite corbyn to a non-political ritual event

what percentage of Jews would you describe as practicing?

good question. i'd have to look at the PEW polling to remember exactly what %# identifies as what but if you maintain some ritual observances / participate in one of the major denominations i'd consider you practicing. i don't think you need to be a zionist (tho the majority of identifying jews do consider themselves zionist). i don't think that if your participation is limited to attending the workman's circle or a bund group you're practicing tho (and historically participants in those groups wouldn't consider themselves practicing either).

this looks like better numbers about the religious votes in the 2017 election, but I'm curious about the historical numbers: http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/religious-affiliation-and-party-choice-at-the-2017-general-election/

sounds like the Jewish shift to Tories started in at least 2005, but maybe Corbyn added to it. Doesn't seem really comparable to the historical ties between Jews and the Democratic Party.

that makes it look like jews are the most pro-con religious group in the country

Which they are. I believe Hindus are catching up as their community gets wealthier.

I suppose NI Proddies dutifully turn out to vote for the DUP but that's another thread.

http://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31064276_1756641954382381_5660464831078072320_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=v1%3AAeEJFBis1yJ7ucX2F9oaUArNq70xlat-DVKk3wjsFqUOPNSfiuejdXFjGYaJfGvEFtuFhynX6Fd-5Zf49LMOmuwJcl7NgMYXDLpLUoUotFqCig&oh=061443ca112e57bf2ff16cda0d79de16&oe=5B651B59

I know this is meant to be a joke, but does this sort of stuff strike anyone else as being insensitive and ignorant of history? Unthinking of the suffering that the original generation of refugees must have been going through in 1948, after losing everything. I ask because this is not the first time this sort of stuff has been posted on Facebook by people who I thought would know better.

i think it's funny ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

it is ignorant at the least

its deliberately rude and insensitive but lots of ppl who know more about it than anyone on ilx wld say similar things so calling it "ignorance" is just supercilious hot air

it's been very... clarifying to witness the israeli government more or less abandon the diaspora and work overtime to minimize right-wing anti-semitism in pursuit of geopolitical advantage.

punchline: my right-wing congressman, whenever asked a question by or about a jewish constituent, will respond, and i paraphrase, "israel israel israel israel."

living out here is the boonies has been interesting. there are a lot of right-wingers who no doubt share the usual casually anti-semitic views (honestly, i haven't asked, but looking at the comments on the local paper's website is enough for me). and then there are my left-leaning colleagues who will condemn anti-semitism but make statements that shade into stereotypes and worse. because i'm opposed to netanyahu and the occupation they seem to think it's ok to say things like, "israel should be wiped off the face of the earth" to my face.

the closest thing to this i can recall is when i lived in eastern europe, frankly.

starting to feel like we don't have any real friends. a feeling no doubt familiar to my ancestors.

I am heartened to say that at least here in New York City I feel like I have real friends. The outpouring of solidarity has been heartening. And I do feel like some of the usual suspect Jewish right wingers in my facebook feed have been a little bit chastened or sheepish in the last couple of days.

you have colleagues who say that to you? wow. who do you work for, hezbollah?

xpost

no!

i don't want to exaggerate. only a few of them are like this, and only one person said made the remark i quoted. but the rest of them seem to countenance what seems to be some questionable opinions, to differing degrees.

sometimes i see posts by my colleagues' friends on social media and /their/ friends write the sort of screeds against "zionists" that are basically classic anti-semitic libels with the word "jew" removed. "netanyahu drinks the blood of palestinian children" is an example that made my jaw drop.

i'm not a zionist but whenever someone uses that word disparagingly i tense up, expecting the worst... in some cases i get a little too defensive.

yeah, I do generally understand that sort of rock-and-hard-place that you're describing and have been in it. Somehow it's not much part of my life today, much moreso when I was younger and maybe more hung out with people adjacent to my college friends instead of people whose kids go to the same school as mine. There's really not a huge amount of anti-Israel sentiment among mainstream American liberals, and certainly not much of the vitriol you're describing (and that tbf I have come across before).

There was a special service at our synagogue this morning. I didn't go, but my wife tells me there was significant support from local places of worship. Christians, Muslims and so on. There was apparently a police presence, too, for what that's worth, and the police, who many thanked for being there, were very sympathetic and sorry that they had to be there at all.