Taking Sides: Rap vs. Rock

I'd also like to point out that:

- There's nothing inherently wrong with songs that state "I am the greatest".

- Queen's "We Are The Champions" and "We Will Rock You" are both wildly self-absorbed.

- A good 85% of Morrissey's lyrics are wildly self-absorbed.

Part of the point that I'm trying to make is that dismissing rap as a genre in general because of its most popular segment is as silly as holding up examples of violent lyrics in rock music and dismissing the entire genre as violent. This isn't even taking into account the near-obsession people had in the 80's with blaming bands like WASP, Iron Maiden, Megadeth, Slayer, etc for kids who formed suicide pacts, kidnapped and killed someone, or dabbled in Satanic worship. (If I wasn't at work, I'd see if I could scrounge up links for you.)

At any rate, there are entire collectives of people in the hip- hop community who are NOT about gunplay, bling-bling, hoes and bitches, and thug life. I mentioned those DC artists for a reason, although you can get the same type of thing from De La Soul, The Roots, A Tribe Called Quest, Bust Rhymes, Queen Latifah, Del Tha Funkee Homosapien, Black Eyed Peas, Digable Planets, Common, and Dead Prez.

I must say that by sweeping aside the hip-hoppers, headbangers, punks, and ravers, you seem to have dismissed the origins of a good 90% of the ILM readership... :)

Anyway, I think I see your point clearer now. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it seems much more rational than it did when I first started in on this thread.

anyway, what tom said. listen to more rock, find rap more interesting right now.

You turn an argument about music into some bullshit story about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, and end up lambasting people for not being able to do likewise. Stroking your own ego on a music forum does little to help your credibility, especially when you're criticizing rap artists for doing the same thing.

And BOY are there some disturbing racial undertones in your comments. You like DMX because it's some of the "stupidest shit you've ever heard," and that amuses you. You constantly talk about laziness, as if you had any idea what goes into making genuinely good hip-hop. I don't even know what else to say, I'm speechless. I think your comments speak for themselves, and since most of the posters to this forum seem like genuinely intelligent people who care a great deal about music, I think they can see right through you, too. I don't know if I'll ever be able to take anything you say about music seriously again, and I've never said that before.

To answer Sterling's question, cos he probably feels a bit bad that his question has fallen to the wayside because of some ridiculous rantings about innercity failure and how all rap fans are lazy blunt- smokers: I have a problem with the idea of rock versus rap, rock versus pop, one form of music versus any other. They're all valid in their own rights, given the right artist and right song. There are things you can do in the context of rap music that you do not normally find in rock, and certainly vice versa. Rap music is of course infinitely more suited to dancing though, and you know how I feel about dancing.

I didn't answer the question in the first place because of this quandry I have. I don't feel a particular genre is any better than the other. I think my record collection is fairly well split between what is traditionally rock, what is traditionally pop, what is traditionally rap, and what is traditionally r&b. None of them are better than the other - it's a bit like "Who do you like better, your mom or your dad?" for me. It's the reason why I had to boil the rock vs. pop question down to the attitude stylings of it all (that and the fact that I have no definition of what pop music is). I can't deal with a sweeping genre question, personally, because I can see what is inherently "better" in each one, and just because one particular aspect is "better" in one genre doesn't mean it goes above the others, because it's invariably weak in another aspect.

So, if that makes sense.

The bottom line for me is that I don't listen to a lot of rap music because it's not really my background. Quite simply, I don't relate to a lot of it. That said, I find pockets that speak to me for one reason or another. Early Public Enemy is one (and, for the record, is an excellent example of actually saying something meaningful, keeping a killer rhyme going, and avoiding gratuitous boasting and violence). I also really liked the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy. More recently, I really got off on Mos Def's Black on Both Sides. I'd even go so far as to say Gil Scott-Heron who, while not precisely a rap artist, is probably far more hip hop than many of the mainstream artists carrying the flag today.

Like Ally, I refuse to take sides on this issue, because I don't think it accomplishes much. Both genres have their high points and their low points. At its best, hip hop and rap have a way of being able to say something very directly, something political, and even activist, without appearing too preachy or overly earnest (compare to Rattle-and-Hum-era U2, which was downright embarassing). Good rock, on the other hand, can engage people very emotionally without necessarily seeming too syrupy. That's not to say that the reverse isn't true, it just seems far more rare. At the worst of both genres, you get vile filth. You don't want to put shitty-ass metal into your ears, and you likely don't want to put self-congratulatory rap into your ears either. Dig for the good stuff and in the end, if you don't like it you don't like it. There's nothing wrong with that.

But hey, if Sterling reads down this far, I would like you to explain more fully your assertion that rap lyrics speak to more aspects of society than rock. At first this seemed completely preposterous to me. Then I realized that "rock" or country or whatever all have their own specialized audiences, so this made a little more sense. Still, I can't see Rap lyrics speaking to more people than any other genre, probably less. More young people, sure, maybe, especially young males. But that's only a small percentage of the population.

The thing about all these rock questions is I just don't know what that word means anymore. I hear "rock" and I always think of Peal Jam and Creed.

My answer: Electronica (ho ho). Call me Switzerland.

Anyway, I find it interesting that the mainstream (over in the US at least) seems willing to glom onto such rap acts as Missy Elliot, Busta Rhymes, Wu Tang, Outkast, all of which are far more interesting than what passes for mainstream rock Limp Bizkit, Creed, Dave Matthews. Rap seems to get more room to be strange and experiment a little before it drops off the MTV radar.

Sure, this often gets cast into "ghetto" terms, but that's merely a stage which these larger items are played out on, and these larger items have slightly more universalism to them. Music coming from the suburban tip I find very confining these days, as there's simply a more limited range of experience to draw on.

Without citing tons of examples, I don't think I can do a better job than that right now.

I still don't really think I understand the claim that rap is more about rhyming than other forms of pop lyric are. Neuromancer, I was talking about writing, not listening. Like Tom said, there can be pleasures in rhyme. There can also be, I suppose, a kind of useful restrictiveness - a framework which actually makes it easier to write.

i know that this shit is over, but i just notcied this: what the fuck?

what 'message' do combustible edison deliver at all?

easy listening pastiche? wearing 30's evening gowns?

using cigarette holders? man i cant see any fucking message there.......what a weirdo

For myself, I dunno where I stand in this discussion. One one hand, I really like rap. On the other hand, much/most of the lyrics are really abhorrent. I don't think there's many people here who disagree with that. But like the rest of us I just ignore it. But in the end I think we have to face the music: All of those messages aren't for naught. I don't think rap straightforwardly and uncomplicatedly _causes_ drug use, violence etc; I do think it desensitizes and normalizes that kind of stuff, so that it's more easily accepted by the impressionable.

So no, I don't agree with the media stereotype of rap as a one-dimensional monster that directly causes violence and drug use and mistreatment of women. But I'm disturbed at the message it sends. I think the alarm bells really started when I watched the Hype Williams film with Nas and DMX, _Belly_. It wasn't the _glorification_ of crime that bothered me so much as the normalization. The way it was made to look quick and easy and a viable lifestyle. Sure, there were token attempts at making the story a moral fable, like the ending (and, laughably, Nas reading from a morality pamphlet entitled something like "Personal Betterment"), but they were easily overpowered by the ill-gotten glitz.

Maybe what shocks me most in some rap lyrics is an acceptance and shrugging-off of murder. That really goes too far.

- why is that image of toughness and oppression among the rappers. C'mon slavery was abolished a long time ago. -freestyle? Jajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajaja -Big pants.....what a waste of clothing -there's no real music behind the voices. most of the times the samples are not original -no instruments played

rock is the best and will always be

Yup, I see him everyday.

As someone who spends a lot of time with people who listen to and exclusively perform classical music, I have no choice but to laugh at this sentence.