The Lysergic Acid Diethylamidiotic Joe Biden & Sarah Palin VP Presidential Debate thread in the 2 zero zero 8 (2008 party over oops)

xpost - yeah, Elmo, his reaction seemed incredibly odd to me: did he really think there was ANY way he was going to get a candidate to sell out a policy proposal in a national debate? "Remember that thing where I said we needed to invest in our children's education? We could lose that one, my heart wasn't really in it."

nabisco -- i understand the concern about having biden shoot his mouth off, but i think it's pretty certain that more attention will be paid to palin in the debate spin aftermath. like it or not, this is kinda her show as she is still a (relatively) unknown quantity, so everyone's going to be watching for how she does, whereas biden already has a long reputation for saying dumb things -- it's totally expected of him, and often just passed over

McCain/Palin can lose the election on Thursday, but they can't win it.

the best-case scenario in my mind is biden restraining himself, answering questions genially and calmly, and letting palin zing away without having anything substantive to say

You realize that this scenario is actually a win for Palin, right?

― i am the small cat (HI DERE), Wednesday, October 1, 2008 10:49 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i want this to happen cause i think it feeds two stories that are advantageous to the obama campaign--1) the mccain campaign is rude, impetuous and totally lacking substance and 2) biden is a valuable steady-hand asset to the obama campaign, which is the opposite of the hasty and impulsive mccain campaign...

so far in this election ive seen little to no indication that voters are, post-convention, responding to palin's ignorance or the campaigns general attack direction the way they did with bush (whether thats because shes even dumber than he was, or because the "national mood" is no longer in favor of the uninformed, or because shes a woman, is a issue for another thread). stoic, calm steadiness has been working very well for obama's campaign so far, and the mccain campaign cant figure out what it is or what its doing except that it hates obama (and apparently the truth)

biden is a valuable steady-hand asset to the obama campaign, which is the opposite of the hasty and impulsive mccain campaign...

Um, Obama is the valuable steady-hand asset to the Obama campaign. Biden is the loose cannon!

im not saying that as a statement of fact, im saying its an advantageous story for the media to seize on

have you heard Biden's gaffes in the last couple of weeks? As nabisco said, it's expected of Biden.

i want the next days headlines to be "biden shows why he is an asset to the campagin" and "palin fast with zings but wheres the substance" instead of "biden and palin zing each other all over the place" which even if palin "loses" comes off like a draw

That would be a very odd story for the media to seize on considering to date it's been "lol Biden is crazy but ain't got NUTHIN' on Palin, wau"

xp, ha

take out "steady-hand" then its not really important to my point

biden's in a shitty position -- if he confronts her, they will try to spin him as being rude, condescending, etc. if he doesn't engage her at all, then the spin will be that this tough-talking powerhouse of a dem was rendered toothless by lil ol' sarah, everywoman

I hadn't heard about the Couric interview until after the Pres debate. I was watching CNN and the aftershow kept going on and on about how bad it was, how it was a disaster, etc. You would have thought she fell out of her chair or started screaming or something. And then I looked it up and yes, it was shitty, but I don't think nearly as bad as the media made it out to be. I still think she's out of her league but I don't think she's a walking timebomb, and that midwestern accent is charming and that is all most Americans are going to take away from any interview with her. She's going to have to mess up much more severely to do any damage.

and no, there will be no "draw," way to hedge your bets you guys

You don't think it's that bad? I think it's horrifying. (xpost)

its weird to me that you guys are so eager to see biden unleashed when the obama debate strategy of being calm and collected paid off well in the first debate... why is this one so different?

palin will either 'win' (regardless of substance) for exceeding expectations or she will choke on her own twisted tongue and that will be that

because biden is not obama and palin is not mccain, max

and i don't necessarily want to see BIDEN UNLEASHED but he has to be himself to some extent, otherwise he's on the defensive and just reacting to palin, letting her dictate the tone and direction of the discussion

besides, joe biden speaking in public without throwing in a few clever digs at his opponent is like a day without sunshine, it's how he play

biden already has a long reputation for saying dumb things

I think this reputation is limited to the media and folks who pay attention to people like Joe Biden, not undecided voters, who may well recognize Biden's name but not know his foot-in-mouth habits well enough to find them funny or charming. It is a totally different thing is he says something problematic during a VP debate and has chatter about his gaffe overwhelm chatter about how Palin does not entirely know what she's doing/saying. So yeah, I think Biden should worry less about "beating" her and more about prodding her to beat herself (sorry, these terms sound suddenly inappropriate) -- i.e., questioning her, engaging her, making her think on her feet and fall on her own.

Re: the Couric thing, I have anecdotal evidence of multiple people who were EXCITED about Palin and, despite not having major issues-based disagreement with anything she said in that interview, came away thinking "hold on, she just says random words while she's trying to think up an answer!" -- when this sense is palpable, it's palpable to everyone regardless of politics

no dude, gwen ifill is dictating the tone and direction of the discussion, and biden just has to come across as smart and engaging and substantive

i get that we all want to be entertained, but for serious, chilligotthis.jpg

well, that's assuming that ifill even moderates the debate

It's not that the right's critique isn't utterly transparent, but media backlash was one of the principal dynamics in motivating the Palin bounce in the first place.

But there's another factor here too. In preparing for a debate, you are often preparing nearly as much for the "judge" or moderator as for the opponent. Both campaigns probably have a pretty good idea of what types of questions she is likely to ask, how he is likely to ask them. Palin and Biden have undoubtedly watched videotapes of Ifill moderating the 2004 debate between John Edwards and Dick Cheney.

By changing the moderator, you're throwing everyone a curveball, and catering to the candidate who is better able to adapt on the fly. Which, most likely, is not going to be Sarah Palin.

via http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

i dunno max, you seem pretty invested in the idea that biden has to wear kid gloves for this

all respect to 538, but preparing for a specific moderator seems like a dumb idea to begin with.

All for Palin to lose, either way

or at least preparing for a moderator being the main focus, that is

doh i just posted about this in the other election thrad

i'm sure they prepare for every eventuality, including the variable of 'the moderator' -- you think the campaigns leave this up to chance?

You alluded to the same thing above, Elmo! I mean, the entire appeal of Palin rests in her being relatable to many folks, and when people see someone they relate to being jumped on by a career politician, whose side do you think they gravitate to? (Hence, like I said, Biden's job is to assist Palin in failing, not to jump out and MAKE her fail.)

someone photoshop "I'll there with you" Jesus over Sarah Palin.

i don't mean biden has to come at her swinging -- he can afford to pull his punches, only a little bit -- but if he is seen as not engaging her at all, i think it presents a worse outcome for him

Palin's "I think I was in second grade when we heard Biden say that" comment wasn't really a smart thing to say on her behalf, to put it mildly. If any memorably punch lands on Palin, this comment by her will likely be the catalyst.

I think Pailn will come out OKish, but given many peoples low expectations it will be a seen as a victory.

A debate is different from an interview, she's good at debates. She doesn't debate on issues but on crowd pleasing homilies. She, like Regan, isn't a facts and stats politician.

see: http://www.alternet.org/election08/101011/i%27ve_debated_sarah_palin_more_than_20_times_--_here%27s_what_it%27s_like/

Palins announcements only really get turned into a damaging 'you tube moment' jumble when under pressure, for instance the Couric newspaper questions had to get asked three times. Go back to the other flubs and you'll see it when the question has to be repeated because she gave a non-answer.

However, in a debate you can't press like that, and it looks like Biden has been especially warned not to press.

She wont mess up if not pressed.She may give bland non answers but she wont do the really damaging stuff. Unless Biden takes the risk of looking like a bully and presses hard. He needs to especially do this if Palin goes negative like her communnity organiser comments, he absolutely needs to call her out for that, no matter how she says it with a cutesy smile and a mannered 'you know'.

One difference in the debate winning tactics is that, unlike the Alaska ones mentioned in the article linked to above, these will be replayed and re-examined. This is the first You Tube election, if she flubs in a way that wouldn't have mattered much in previous years, it will be all over the net and it will be the clip of that flub we'll all be watching over and over.

"all respect to 538, but preparing for a specific moderator seems like a dumb idea to begin with."

Uh no, it's a very smart idea.

"She wont mess up if not pressed."

uh what?

i don't mean biden has to come at her swinging -- he can afford to pull his punches, only a little bit -- but if he is seen as not engaging her at all, i think it presents a worse outcome for him

otm otm otm

He shouldn't ignore her, jeez no one is saying that.

i don't think Palin will let him (or anybody really) ignore her.

Kathleen Parker gets letters

"I will not be . . . ignored . . ."

http:/✧✧✧.hostingp✧✧✧.c✧✧✧@michelletackab✧✧✧.n✧✧/blog/images/closelamp.jpg

I do like this part:

"Let Sarah be Sarah" has become the latest rallying cry among my colleagues on the right. She'll be fine if we just leave her alone, they say. Between prayers, I might add.

Schadenfreude:

Readers have every right to reject my opinion. But when we decide that a person is a traitor and should die for having an opinion different from one's own, we cross into territory that puts all freedoms at risk. (I hear you, Dixie Chicks.)

He shouldn't ignore her, jeez no one is saying that.

max, Shakey and Rock Hardy all said it on this thread.

Everyone should step away from this thread, get good and hammered tomorrow night, and return.

hello i have been sent the best gif ever

http://i36.tinypic.com/53p6xf.gif

Sigh, okay no one who actually has the slightest say in how Biden might behave (or the faintest idea about how debate dynamics work) is saying that.

JW that gif is highly offensive and is embarrassing to all americans of either party and also to me personally embarrassing due to copious and also high-volume roffles attracting unwanted coworker attention.

"best" = dumb, irritating, deeply unfunny?

rollseyes.jpg i didnt say he should ignore her, but if its important for me to be wrong, wv, rollseyes.jpg

max, Shakey and Rock Hardy all said it on this thread.

I believe I have been "misinterpretated"