the most promising young american author is TAO LIN

im sort of being glib so im sorry if its unclear what im saying here. i think the main thrust of the 'identity politics' convo w/r/t how we view art is basically that we're not really taking into account the conditions necessary for how art is made, measured, valued, and havent been for years, and once you've opened up that realization-- that our canons et al were built on the flimsy ground of a agreed-upon principles of dead white men in positions of power-- its hard to make arguments about what matters without seeing it in the shape of this reality. what is left to you as the subject is an ability to convey your subjective experience, your perception of what matters, in a world where this is a true observation about what we give attention to

i get a surface level irritation sometimes when i see stuff that makes this point the text of their art, because it feels kind of direct & i prefer to think of it as subtext, as an often unspoken structure that you're aware of and that anchors your pov in what matters. but sometimes it needs to be said, particularly if you suspect (as is often the case) it's *not* actually the unspoken shared assumption but is largely not a shared truth, is 'up for debate'

idk if im making sense any more but ive been turning these ideas over for awhile & this is the first time ive tried to articulate them, v v first draft stuff

Speaking for the defense, the only thing I like about Tao Lin are his books, which I think are well-written, provocative and closely observed.

I'm not interested in his Internet presence or his place in the zeitgeist.

The thread title is no longer accurate, but how could it be? The phrase "most promising young American author" has a short shelf life regardless of who it's pinned on.

that realization-- that our canons et al were built on the flimsy ground of a agreed-upon principles of dead white men in positions of power-- its hard to make arguments about what matters without seeing it in the shape of this reality.

"this reality"? hmmm. your position certainly may be argued for and evidence adduced in its favor, but the reality I see is that almost none of the literature that is consumed in our society is controlled by or even influenced by canons put together by dead white men, or by their agreed-upon principles. all those people buying john grisham novels, anne rice novels, or j.k. rowling novels do so based solely on the pleasure they find in them as seen through their personal standards.

the only place where the canon you speak of can be imposed upon readers to any degree whatever is in academia and it is my observation that the majority of students upon whom this imposition has been foisted find the canon to be boring or irrelevant, and the instant they escape from academia they proceed to ignore it with an assiduity which may be termed awe inspiring if it were applied to something anyone cared about.

if "the canon" retains any influence at all under those lees-than-ideal circumstances, it isn't because it was force fed to younglings who have abandoned it like a burning building, but because the books themselves have some discernible value to the few people who appreciate them for what they are, not for what someone else told them they ought to appreciate.

all those people buying john grisham novels, anne rice novels, or j.k. rowling novels do so based solely on the pleasure they find in them as seen through their personal standards.

these are 'canons'? this is who tao lin's competition was? ok if you say so

im just using the literary canon as one example bc we're talking about tao lin but this stretches to literally every avenue of american life, which is built on a pervasive, underlying power structure

if you're talking about airplane reading sure its canon is shaped in slightly different ways but thats not really what 'taipei' is

its OK to still like tao lin

what people struggle with are the hyperbolic statements, the lazy assumptions abt how hes the voice of a generation, the general stuff that builds on the cliches of power & marketing

bc him being a shithead influences ppl's interpretations of his art which that kind of "interpretation" mainly ignores

well, who is the most promising now? (or even, who was it then?)

I think aspiring writers would still say there are historical forces shaping who’s considered worthy in terms of craft, especially if they aspire toward writing “literary” fiction. I’ve been thinking recently about that Claire Vaye Watkins article in Tin House. Also canons still very much in operation in American high school English classes

this is who tao lin's competition was?

in the eyes of society, yes, that's exactly who his competition was.

the number of readers who care about 'what is art vs. what is craft' or the aesthetics of literature, or who will be taught in college curricula fifty years from now, makes up a vanishingly small number compared to people who simply want to read a 'good' book - by which they simply mean a book they enjoy.

I read a lot in what you would no doubt classify as "the canon", including lots of books written more than three centuries ago, but I class myself right along with those grisham readers, in that all I am seeking is enjoyment, in the form of a continued interest from start to finish.

Also if there are a ton of bad literary men getting away with bad behavior it necessarily has a chilling effect on women’s writing, just to pick one historical force.

well, who is the most promising now? (or even, who was it then?)

― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, November 29, 2017 7:38 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i am being audited or something?

More historical forces playing out:

Wow, editors rejected @leonardchang's novel because his Korean-American characters "didn't act Asian enough" https://t.co/6PyPiKR3AK pic.twitter.com/RJBRUhIymK

— brandon sheffield (@necrosofty) November 7, 2017

Aforementioned Claire Vaye Watkins piece: http://tinhouse.com/on-pandering/

Nb I thought this was righteous when I first read it, but I gather it garnered some controversy. It’s worth saying that by virtue of being a white woman with a certain pedigree, Watkins is placed differently vis a vis the literary world than a Southern black woman would be, for example. I still think the thing she is describing here is real and worth reckoning with.

editors reject books for lots of stupid reasons. that editor's reasoning was especially stupid and racist. someday we will have only smart, compassionate, talented editors. we will all be much happier then.

If the argument is that tao lin is sucking up the oxygen that could have been spared for more worthy writers, then comparing him against them would make it pretty clear if that was the case, no? but if the other candidate for most promising young american author is just john grisham, then...

I'm super into this fwiw (although it certainly made a lot of people mad, it looks like):

Dear agents, please stop sending inquiries to Tyrant. We no longer consider agented writers. Writers w/agents: feel free to send, just know you have to drop your agent if we want to sign you. Thanks,
Tyrant staff

— New York Tyrant/Tyrant Books (@tyrantbooks) November 22, 2017

Why are you into that? (Genuine question?)

in the eyes of society, yes, that's exactly who his competition was.

the number of readers who care about 'what is art vs. what is craft' or the aesthetics of literature, or who will be taught in college curricula fifty years from now, makes up a vanishingly small number compared to people who simply want to read a 'good' book - by which they simply mean a book they enjoy.

I read a lot in what you would no doubt classify as "the canon", including lots of books written more than three centuries ago, but I class myself right along with those grisham readers, in that all I am seeking is enjoyment, in the form of a continued interest from start to finish.

― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, November 29, 2017 6:41 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is not why tao lin became well known! he wasn't selling beach reading dude, this is a total misrepresentation of the power structures that built him

I actually think this is a cool idea to potentially get more unheard voices published that wouldn't otherwise be published but the guy that runs NY Tyrant is a huge cokehead and I can't trust anyone on cocaine

tao lin got famous by sticker bombing NYC and annoying the shit out of Gawker writers. the first time i heard of him was when i passed by one of his books in a suburban barnes & noble in early 2007

My understanding is that part of the reason Tyrant made this move is the owner resents the fallout of his harassment of a female writer. She was represented by an agent who renegotiated her contract. It seems like a p transparent way for an unprincipled publisher to exploit inexperienced writers?

are you talking about Darcie? yeah i saw some of that scanning twitter looking for that tweet, i need to read more about it, i think they both tend to be full of shit (tho i enjoyed her book) so it's hard to tell what's what

Yes, I am talking about her.

I just saw the reaction to it right now, wasn't aware of all the dross and context associated with it when i saw it last week

My understanding is that a writer unrepresented by an agent is in grave danger of being cheated by a publisher, unless she understands the details of the law and contracts exceptionally well.

also sorry not sorry 2 b a sap; just taught Baldwin’s “notes of a native son” to my seniors and in the course of discussion I told them he had written, “I want to be an honest man and a good writer.” seems obliquely relevant.

also choked me up a little. ambushed by unexpected emotion.

one insane thing about the marvel ed in chief being exposed as having written under the penname 'akira yoshida' was when the execs said they liked him bc they were blown away having found a japanese writer who knew how to write for 'western audience'

tyrant dude is def full of shit

or rather, horseshoe otm

but if the other candidate for most promising young american author is just john grisham, then...

― Philip Nunez,

I met John Grisham a few weeks ago and he was extremely nice.

Just friendly, genuine, and normal. I’ve found that many writers are like this and it does make me feel annoyed with the ones who are not.

Like tao lin, who is passive aggressive and manipulative. Defending the tyrant guy is clearly bullshit. I think it’s impossible to mount a defense of tao lin based on what e says or does — it’s the books themselves that are interesting

its unpacking the word 'interesting' that is needed from tao lin proponents, imo

instead of being like, it has this general worthiness that should be appreciated

I actually think this is a cool idea to potentially get more unheard voices published that wouldn't otherwise be published but the guy that runs NY Tyrant is a huge cokehead and I can't trust anyone on cocaine

this post sounds like it was written on cocaine

If you've ever had to wade through a slush pile you might think it less of a cool idea. The ratio of unpublishable to publishable is about 1000:1

The ratio of unpublishable to publishable is about 1000:1

This makes you complicit in the great "we control the canon" conspiracy. It would be even worse if you identify as a dead white man.

this is not why tao lin became well known!

I see you are under the impression that tao lin became well known.

well known enough for an ilx thread? your arguments are embarrassing and bad

sorry for resorting to the objective lol but

This makes you complicit in the great "we control the canon" conspiracy. It would be even worse if you identify as a dead white man.

― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:32 PM (fifty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it makes me angry how stupid this post is. like ffs

the sins of dead white men are many and great, beside which I count their setting up canons of literature they admired as being on the order of pinching the cheeks of children as a misguided gesture of fondness. get angry about slavery and colonial wars, deej. not about Homer, Horace and Virgil.

your arguments are embarrassing and bad

which is only to say that they do not sway you, while phrasing it in a bad and embarrassing way.

lol yeah definitely don't get mad about the systematic exclusion of non-euro voices from the academic/literary canon. who needs em?

You are giving that academic/literary canon far more power than it ever had in real life. It is mostly an illusion. You seem to accept that this is a massive injustice, rather than a middling minor one. The prestige of the canon you're so mad about has been waning as fast as Latin classes in high school.

At this moment in history you have rapid access to a vast wealth of non-euro voices, more than you could read in the decades left to you. Bitching because kiddies aren't being spoon fed them accomplishes nothing. Just go read them if you want to. You are free to browse the pastures of literature as whim or interest guides you, and all those kiddies have the internet, and they can wander hither and thither, too, if you can pry them away from the porn.

the era of infinite accessibility means cultural gatekeepers matter more, not less, and academic/literary canons are no longer so easily separable from internet/twitter/porn culture, it seems.

its unpacking the word 'interesting' that is needed from tao lin proponents, imo

instead of being like, it has this general worthiness that should be appreciated

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:10 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

why

no one owes you anything

this isn't a tribunal

there are no "art crimes"

and i despise cocaine and cokeheads