Classic or Dud: Chuck Klosterman

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (511 of them)
What about 'ILM vs Steven Wells'?

dave q, Thursday, 28 August 2003 11:01 (twenty years ago) link

heh, not 'one on one' but there's something there.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 28 August 2003 11:28 (twenty years ago) link

ah, i thought the essay had its merits. klosterman is not unlike ann coulter -- passionately, incessantly, LOUDLY embracing the 'populist, real american' point of view, but doing so in such a strenuous way that it's really difficult to feel like that embrace isn't conviction as much as it's a marketing point, or at least a way for him to line up that lucrative fox news channel gig once spin goes under. i hated fargo rock city (i think i've mentioned this on other threads) -- i thought the writing was piss-poor, like sub-bad weblog poor. (plus, hello, a book about '80s hard rock that doesn't mention cheap trick once? give me a break.)

maura (maura), Thursday, 28 August 2003 16:35 (twenty years ago) link

Late to the table on this one. Just picked up the Ames article and am barely a third into it, but can't really get beyond how mean-spirited it is. It's more character assasination than critique (I mean, what does calling Klosterman an ass-faced sex offender really accomplish?)

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 28 August 2003 16:54 (twenty years ago) link

Which is why one absolute truth is that the editor of the Press is a dumbfuck, Alex.

I liked Fargo Rock City, though really wasn't that impressed by the writing all that much.

But you have a point maura: the explosion of the WWW (and more pointedly, blog culture/bulletin boards like this one) has made the writing voice of guys like Klosterman seem very tedious and commonplace. Or at the very least, hardly clever or unique. I'd even argue it makes Lester Bang's talent much less apparent. In fact, the new Bangs book, like the Marcus comp before it, seems completely unenlightening.

don weiner, Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:04 (twenty years ago) link

I doubt I would have found Klosterman's schtick entertaining pre-Web -- or pre-Limbaugh-era talk radio, which I find is a better analogue to many of his most notoriously-angled pieces. It's not not clever because it's not unique: it's not clever because, well, it's so lacking in any substance that isn't the "Hey look at me, I speak the truth of the GREAT UNWASHED that YOU ELITES WILL NOT LISTEN TO!" self-promoting impulse.

(I would also argue that ILX irritates me in the exact same way that Klosterman does when it's mired in its semi-perpetual argument for the sake of argument nadirs.)

maura (maura), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:18 (twenty years ago) link

the only time i vaguely 'sympathized' w. ames and shook my head in a "jesus, that *is* unforgiveably stupid"-manner, was when i read the "no, being cool is about getting laid" responses and mistakenly thought that these were still book excerpts, and belonged to klosterman himself. (ps. i've never read klosterman first-hand)

mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:18 (twenty years ago) link

plus, hello, a book about '80s hard rock that doesn't mention cheap trick once? give me a break.

You elitist, Maura! ;-) The Coulter comparison is harsh but you know, the more Klosterman continues the more it starts to make a certain sense...

(My view on Klosterman, ie rather overrated (Robert Plant inadvertantly but perfectly cutting him down directly is still a thing of joy), remains the same; my view on Ames is that he's useless.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:28 (twenty years ago) link

I quite liked "Fargo Rock City" for the piece of amusing, beach-reading fluff it ultimately was. I don't think Klosterman's worth the sheer amount of hateful ire Ames has conjured here. Granted, I haven't read Klosterman's new one, and I'm no stranger to being reduced to bug-eyed apoplexy because of something vacuous someone's written about an entirely trivial subject, so maybe I should shut up until I've read it.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:29 (twenty years ago) link

Maura I never find Klosterman that braggadocious, actually. Certainly not in the vainglorous way that Coulter or Limbaugh (or Al Franken or Michael Moore, for that matter.) I think there is a self-depreciation in a lot of what Klosterman writes about, actually. Or maybe it's just that I grew up in a hickass town nearly the same size of Klosterman and am thus slightly more inclined to defend my own. (The difference being that I look back on my hair-band fandom with a degree of amused disdain as opposed to pride. I don't recall Fargo Rock City ever being too embarassed that most of those hair bands exploited women for what amounts to sport.)

don weiner, Thursday, 28 August 2003 18:26 (twenty years ago) link

This is a joke. If this anything other than a blatant attempt by one of Klosterman's cronies to pump sales of his book than I would be shocked.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:16 (twenty years ago) link

I'm pretty sure it's legit, Alex.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:20 (twenty years ago) link

I'm SHOCKED!

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:27 (twenty years ago) link

I'm hesitant to stand firm on this since the new book DOES seem like it may be way more indulgent than Fargo Rock City, but I think comparing him to Coulter is REALLY harsh. One thing I like about Klosterman is that his tastes, abilities seem to be genuinely evolving and growing. While he can get rather pious about being part of the great unwashed, I am glad he doesn't let being part of the great unwashed keep him from announcing his observations, the best of which are NOWHERE as antagonistic and ignorant as someone like Ann Coulter.

He does say some less-than-informed things to Liz Phair and Robert Plant in his interviews with them, but by being blunt and risking offense with them he gets some of the better quotes I've heard from those artists. His willingness to hear out opposite arguments in those cases is one major reason the comparison to Ann Coulter bothers me.

His reviews in SPIN seem lacking to me, he can be hit-or-miss and it's possible that just like with his hero Axl Rose fame will not benefit Klosterman's work, but his openness, humor and insights make him one of the more interesting and exciting writers out there. But as Nabisco noted earlier, I share similarities in taste and style.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:42 (twenty years ago) link

Also, Fargo Rock City gives a whole chapter to the role of women in Heavy Metal, and whether or not you agree with his level of tolerance, the chapter shows him to be thoughtful about the subject.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 28 August 2003 22:44 (twenty years ago) link

I hate that Klosterman fellow, and I hate that Ames fellow. I'm sort of confused about what to feel now.

He does make a ton of good points about CK being useless, though he himself is as well. Screw 'em both.

ham on rye (ham on rye), Sunday, 31 August 2003 02:24 (twenty years ago) link

that essay is totally, completely, 100% worthless. he doesn't make one single point worth making and he doesn't back any of his assertions up.

M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 31 August 2003 03:17 (twenty years ago) link

Welcome to the wonderful world of entertainment
where life imitate art and people get famous
Welcome to the world of showbiz arrangement
where lights, camera, action is the language

Dock Miles (Dock Miles), Sunday, 31 August 2003 03:25 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, that's a pretty sad article... several of his conclusions he presumed to be self-evident were actually more "um, how the hell does that follow?" Also, it's disappointing, because Klosterman is certainly ripe for an actual honest, level-headed, reasoned take-down rather than this sort of rant. I mean, I find certain things about Klosterman very frustrating: he seems to pose pretty hard as a kind of likeable and interesting hick, when he actually comes across as a disturbing and spiteful hick (esp. w/r/t misogyny, distrust of all things "highbrow", weird, assholish speaking-for-womankind reactions to facial cumshots, etc.).

Clarke B., Sunday, 31 August 2003 20:17 (twenty years ago) link

>>weird, assholish speaking-for-womankind reactions to facial cumshots,<

What exactly was "weird" or "assholish" or "speaking for womankind" about his reaction?? (Or "stupid," as that Ames retard said?) It was actually one of the smartest excerpts Ames quoted, seems to me.

chuck, Sunday, 31 August 2003 20:35 (twenty years ago) link

matos is otm, I couldn't even figure out what the book was supposed to be about from that essay, and all of his quotes were so out-of-context they practically negated the idea of context at all.

s1utsky (slutsky), Monday, 1 September 2003 00:59 (twenty years ago) link

Chuck, he seems blind to the fact that some women might enjoy stuff like that. It's like he's trying to stick up for women, but it comes off to me as kind of condescending. It's one thing to discuss how those sorts of things come across w/r/t gender and power in *porn*, but his comment discounts altogether the possibility that it's not degrading in every situation regardless of context. Definitely in other places, though, it seems like Ames quotes really non-implicating stuff, as I mentioned above.

Clarke B., Monday, 1 September 2003 04:04 (twenty years ago) link

That Steely Dan comment sounds quite reasonable.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 1 September 2003 04:42 (twenty years ago) link

Like, even if it's arguable, and whether or not I agree with it, it's not something to be dismissed outright like Ames does.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 1 September 2003 04:43 (twenty years ago) link

Klosterman's a skilletophobe, fuck him

dave q, Monday, 1 September 2003 07:18 (twenty years ago) link

six months pass...
To be honest, I really like Chuck Klosterman's work. I think that he's insightful, intelligent and although his essays don't always go the direction he's heading, at least they end up somewhere. His writing is real. He says a point, then writes criticisms of the points he's making. And while some may say that it's self-conscious, contrived - directly exploiting the group he is referring to, I say that Chuck Klosterman (as "hip" as he is, without trying to be hip...or is he?) is a talented, and honest writer. Pop culture is important, it's vital. Rock music matters to me, and I'm sure it matters to others. And for the kind of people that read SPIN and Rolling Stone, it's life. I'm sure we'd all like to say that we could do a better job, and I know I wish I had the position Klosterman has as a senior writer for SPIN, essayist, rock star symphant. But still, he's a wonderful writer, he's funny, he's true, and I love him.

Lester Bangs? Maybe not. But I'll take him.

Chandler, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 21:36 (twenty years ago) link

it somehow wasn't a surprise to find out that Klosterman's a huge Ayn Rand fanatic.

hstencil, Thursday, 11 March 2004 02:58 (twenty years ago) link

Oooh. That's a dick-shrivelling statement if there ever was one.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 11 March 2004 03:01 (twenty years ago) link

(Is it too late to make that last statement a little more metaphorical?)

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 11 March 2004 03:02 (twenty years ago) link

He is often full of shit, but Klosterman can be a very entertaining writer. I really enjoyed his last book.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 11 March 2004 03:23 (twenty years ago) link

it somehow wasn't a surprise to find out that Klosterman's a huge Ayn Rand fanatic.

!

Uh, I'm with Mike on this one. But Stence, can you let me know how ya know?

Perhaps tellingly, today I was listening to Rush.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 March 2004 03:30 (twenty years ago) link

one of my roommates for some reason gets copies of this really bad magazine called The Week in the mail (he didn't subscribe and doesn't know why he gets it). Every issue has a "what are you reading?" column wherein some "celebrity" plugs some books. A couple months back they featured Klosterman, and the first book he plugs is Atlas Shrugged, along with some comments to the effect that "if you haven't read this, you don't know what great is" or some other nonsense, I forget which.

hstencil, Thursday, 11 March 2004 03:37 (twenty years ago) link

Oh fucking fuck. You know, I didn't actually HATE the guy until now...

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 March 2004 04:01 (twenty years ago) link

people usually grow out of that phase long before they hit klosterman's age

andrew s (andrew s), Thursday, 11 March 2004 04:06 (twenty years ago) link

chandler from friends posts to ilm?

s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 11 March 2004 04:09 (twenty years ago) link

YAY

s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 11 March 2004 04:09 (twenty years ago) link

when his last book came out, Klostermann told an interviewer that he didn't think there's such a thing as a knowledgeable/qualified critic. You know, it's all just opinions, man, and mine aren't any better than anybody else's, I just get to write 'em in Spin etal. See all those other rock writers are ELITISTS cause they think know something that you don't. Honesty or patronizing faux populism -- you decide. Figures he'd plump for something sophmoric like Ayn Rand.

lovebug starski, Thursday, 11 March 2004 11:55 (twenty years ago) link

Forget it, kid.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 11 March 2004 12:59 (twenty years ago) link

Actually, now maybe I'm more annoyed with the rhetoric about the Franzen novel. What a smugtard.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 March 2004 13:58 (twenty years ago) link

It's like the deepest way he knows how to praise something is by casting ad hominem aspersions on those who don't like it. That's about as convincing agrument for anything as "well, it's better than killing yourself."

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 11 March 2004 14:49 (twenty years ago) link

He's big on hyperbole, huh? And he's big on writing like a high school kid. Although, I'm probably just trying to sound smarter than i am. Or maybe i just believe in the idea of "greatness". That "low culture" subtitle to his last book bugs me. I thought he was supposed to be against all those divisons like high/low or whatever.

scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 11 March 2004 14:59 (twenty years ago) link

It occurs to me that the more time goes on the more he will come across as an equivalent to Ben Elton's career path.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 March 2004 15:29 (twenty years ago) link

I read Fargo Rock City recently and massively enjoyed it, but I suspect that has less to do with its being a great book and more to do with the fact that my youth as a small town midwestern Minnesota heavy metal fan is frightningly similar to Klosterman's.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 11 March 2004 16:34 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, I have no doubt that Fargo Rock City is an entertaining read. I've heard nothing but good things about it.

scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 11 March 2004 17:05 (twenty years ago) link

It's entertaining, yes -- but try and avoid the editions after the first one, when he offers up further thoughts and reflections in a new concluding piece and starts coming across as the guy Blount described spot-on way upthread: "a guy completely unfamiliar with the notion 'history is written by the victors'". I still think his piece on the mourners at the Station fire in Rhode Island trumps all his reflections on a social setting/way of life defined by being working class and loving hard rock.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 March 2004 17:09 (twenty years ago) link

(Which given that said piece is recent makes it all the more noticeable, because jesus god that booklist and the attitude on it crystallizes the secret elitism-disguised-as-populism crap underpinning a lot of his writing, I realize more now. That's something you'll NEVER get from the other Chuck who writes that we all know here, and thank god for that.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 March 2004 17:12 (twenty years ago) link

I also liked his piece in Spin on Morrissey's Latino fanbase that was interesting...

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 11 March 2004 17:21 (twenty years ago) link

ah yeah, that was the line:

If you disagree with Atlas Shrugged, it basically means you disagree with the concept of “being great.”

what a douchebag.

hstencil, Thursday, 11 March 2004 17:33 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, that just leaves a ridiculously bad taste in the mouth -- I don't and never have seen the logical leap from an enjoyable embrace of yourself as a person with happy idiosyncracies -- those elements that make you human in all facets and areas, without apology -- to kowtowing to Rand's humorless and self-righteous vision, all the more amusing precisely because it IS kowtowing, despite all the whining about 'individuality.'

The Franzen reference is worse, though, because I think about how someone coming up to be saying something similarly negative about Loveless would just get a 'hey, that's fine' statement from me. Is my love for that album not justified in his eyes because I don't see fit to go into that ridiculous kind of defense he demands for his love objects? Fuck it.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 March 2004 17:43 (twenty years ago) link

I think his true calling is writing sitcom plot summaries for TV Guide:

Animal Farm by George Orwell (Signet, $8). No one has ever written something so brilliant, so concise, so insightful, and so charming all at the same time.

hstencil, Thursday, 11 March 2004 17:52 (twenty years ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.