Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

Another contrived thing about that scene: the input for the unlock code was this weird, old-fashioned cylinder apparatus instead of the far more common 3x3 number pad, because if it had been the latter, it would've been quite easy for the Doctor to feel it with his fingers and deduce which buttons to push.

and then they couldn't have done this ending.

everyone criticising that last scene is otm imo but they couldn't have achieved this specific ending without a contrived obstacle to his sight. also, archaic and stupid things pop up in real life all the time, so this didn't feel like a huge stretch.

the monks magicking back his sight was much more stupid imo, unless this is all still inside the matrix, in case why do anything?

*in which case

like you AA i didn't mind most of the things people have pointed out here - the airlock that isn't an airlock was a bit of a stretch. but in the service of delivering excitement! i don't really mind these things. and the sight thing didn't bother me - i thought oh god that's terrible, they can even repair a time lord's sight, not something even he could do, they have control, what is the nature of that control and why does it require this manner of consent?

they can even repair a time lord's sight, not something even he could do, they have control, what is the nature of that control and why does it require this manner of consent?

otm, it was one of those episodes which makes 100% perfect sense within its arbitrary self-imposed rules which don't make a lot of sense (needing to fit some highly specific criteria for consent, which in itself is a highly specific criterion for deciding whether or not to let everyone perish). as sci-fi drama it's fine but it requires a particular suspension of disbelief to accept that some ocd politburo will go to these lengths for...? shits and giggles? christ just tell them someone fucked up in a lab, or better still land your pyramid on the lab so the doctor doesn't have to blow it up or even go there or even do any of this, and then you have a free slot to write idk a satire about how a giant orange fuck is ruining the universe.

I've noticed every episode this season seems to have its central mystery solved by inspired guesswork rather than Honest Puzzle Solving - a bad habit from Sherlock, maybe?

This week's was ridic - it went from "the problem could be literally anything in the world" to "it's an accident at a chemical factory!!" within two lines of dialogue.

Thin Ice wasn't solved by guesswork, was it?

(I did like how they identified which lab they needed to visit, though)

I've noticed every episode this season seems to have its central mystery solved by inspired guesswork rather than Honest Puzzle Solving - a bad habit from Sherlock, maybe?

This week's was ridic - it went from "the problem could be literally anything in the world" to "it's an accident at a chemical factory!!" within two lines of dialogue.

chibnall alert - brodchurch always astonished me by effectively making a series out of totally incompetent detective work. v little actual detection and the only way the murderer is discovered is through complete process of elimination, sure a definition of detective failure. in the agatha christie type/golden age story it's allowed for the reader to suspect *anyone* from a small community, in fact it's the point. but the detectives are usually seen to have known at some crucially earlier point. the killing was ok for me on this and i'm not sure why because the style was similar, but possibly bcos broadchurch was so confined and underpopulated.

i always felt that with sherlock holmes (the stories) displays of deduction would take place at the beginning of the story, but the discovery of the murderer often required not deduction but specialist knowledge/inspired guesswork or a moment of action to reveal the murderer. exceptions are the finest stories - the league of red-headed men, hound of the b's, and even they obv had a fair dollop of drama.

so i don't think there's such a thing as purity here.

on the speed of the solution, that feels more a requirement of keeping things lively and brief enough to fit in a short episode, which is why i'm fine with it. emphasis is important and doing it in two lines of dialogue is a success rather than a fault. (that said i enjoy the picking itt)

This week's was ridic - it went from "the problem could be literally anything in the world" to "it's an accident at a chemical factory!!" within two lines of dialogue.

I thought this too - apparently it was originally slightly less abrupt but a couple of lines referencing a terrorist attack were edited out late on

This is the bit of dialogue that was cut from last night's #DoctorWho. pic.twitter.com/Trpr9PVtKl

— Alex Daily 🏳️‍🌈 (@heyalexdaily) May 28, 2017

okay that does make more sense

Interesting! It's still kinda abrupt at full length but I see why they made the cut.

I only bring up the "lucky guesswork" as it's been more clumsily scripted than usual. But I suppose it's better to put your massive handwave halfway through the script (where it can be forgotten) than right at the end like RTD used to do. Either way - this has been one of the most enjoyable seasons so far, so moot point really.

(Also great post re: Holmes/deduction!)

Mostly the greatness of Bill has seen me over the rough bits of plotting

I'm also really glad to have these horrible, horrible Monks that aren't cuddly or intentionally funny. I mean they're a bit unintentionally funny but you know, having the courage of convictions and all that

While we wait, the neural network comes up with episode titles: http://lewisandquark.tumblr.com/post/159509399932/the-neural-network-writes-the-episode-list-for

The Dont
The Sires of the Daleks
The Argass of the Daleks
The Arges of the Daleks
The Wire of the Daleks
The Argoss of the Daleks
The Argass of the Daleks
The Argas of the Daleks
The Daleks of the Daleks
The Stick of the Doctor
The Keds of Death
The Twin Doctors
The Ten Doctors
Cold Clood
The Unicorn and the Daleks
The Fires of Poop
The Beads of the Daleks
The Sontaren Beep
The Power of Tron
The Awkroids of Tara
The Agaves of The Doctor
Dinosaurs of the Deep
The Pirate Lover
Loodly Moysters
The Wheeen Death
The Bile Doctors
Planet of lime
The Crows of Doom
Planet of Fire in Space
The Poupon Invasion

wd watch the crows of doom and the dalek of the daleks.

actually wd watch most of these.

Why do the monks have a German accent? (Or don't they?)

Villain Voice preset #3

the ten doctors sounds like a blast, would def watch

thinking about what the plot for that episode might be has led me to the alternative title the gallifreyan centipede and i'm so, so sorry

dieter laser as the rani obviously

wait, wrong way around, i mean kate o'mara as dieter laser

perhaps i'm overthinking this

LOVE WIN

and next week is mark gatiss jfc i give up

Yeah, this was very reminiscent of the worst kind of Davies era plot resolutions, in that love saves the day in a nonsensical way they just pulled out if their ass. I can't even begin to count how many plot holes and unexplained things there were in this episode... Like, for example, we didn't even learn why the Monks wanted to conquer Earth in the first place? They have superior technology and godlike powers, so what do they need this backwater planet for? And their six month reign must've left a lot of people dead, right? So shouldn't Bill feel terribly guilty for allowing all that? But in the end she's like, whatever, humanity is stupid. I kept expecting there to be some kind of twist at the end, like that Bill's mysterious mum was really a former incarnation of Missy, and that's why she could withstand touching the emitter Monk, even when the Doctor couldn't... But no, it really was as silly as it seemed.

No, they set up Bill imagining her mum as a source of her resistance so relying on it as the resolution was not altogether deus-ex.

i thought the tone of this episode was odd, and i was more than usually irritated by inconsistencies: the way the monks were set up in previous episodes to know all the future and all the past, and have the capability to restore a time lord's sight but then weren't able to prevent the dr and bill (their psychic link for the entire world) from mounting a small armed insurrection on their headquarters bcos *complacency*.

but i didn't mind how Bill's mother was used. She said that this was an imaginary construct of what she thought her mum might be like, which she used as a bulwark against the monks' mind control. it wasn't part of history or the future and so was inaccessible to them etc. also the mind projection of her "construct" mum had a pleasingly surreal album cover aspect to it.

pearl mackie is too good for this show imo, she singlehandedly saved at least three scenes

Hope she lasts or rapidly reappears in something else that works asa vehicle for her. Would love several more series of Capaldi and her though.

i get the feeling she could breathe life into pretty much anything. she's already made the most of some fairly weak scripts this year.

I completely lost interest in this ep during the prison ship rescue, wandered away from it, realized hours later that I'd still not seen how it ended, went on to other things, and eventually got back to it out of curiosity, not enjoyment. Not what you want from the thrilling conclusion to a three-part storyline

Moffat has given us many memorable scenes and ideas but I can't tell you how glad I am that his time is done. Capaldi's character is completely incomprehensible and arbitrary to me now, I would love a blander Davison-type Doctor just so I have something stable and understandable to hang on to

I thought the point was not so much 'the power of lurrrrrve' as 'the power of imagination', which is a bit cleverer no?

I thought it did a good job of portraying a dystopia effectively within the time and budget constraints of one episode, and a had a solidly good and controversial message (if we remember it's for kids) about bad people making you think it has to be this way.

Yeah, even with the obvious inconsistencies, I enjoyed this one again, felt a bit like "Davies era done right". I assume Gatiss will curse the winning streak with whatever happens next week (Victorian science fiction tropes, how surprising!).

Re: Capaldi being "incomprehensible" - that's the point, isn't it? I enjoy the unpredictability, the slightly deranged aspect. If anything, it feels like he's finally figured out the character this season, somewhere between the withdrawn arrogance of the first season and the kerrazy disco uncle of the second.

Random question for Who nerds: whatever happened to Paul Cornell? How come the guy responsible for the two best Nu-Who episodes never got asked back?

^ makes no sense to me either. maybe sic can shed some light.

I thought the point was not so much 'the power of lurrrrrve' as 'the power of imagination', which is a bit cleverer no?

still weird that one person's imaginary mum would send an established oppressive force packing. they all just left.

It's not weird if it was Bill's consent that allowed the monks in, so she used constructed memories to push them out. Foreshadowed in the earlier cup of tea at table scene.

yeah but… they all just left

pissweak as invading forces go

Enjoyed a lot of this episode, but it had serious problems. The Doctor putting Bill through emotional trauma in that unjustified way really stank. And once the episode gets past that, it ignores the Doctor making propaganda videos for six months.

I liked the flashes of the Monks to represent the brainwashing. Too bad the payoff of Bill's message sucked.

I assume the mention of "fake news" was ADR.

^ yes, it was delivered with all characters’ backs to the camera. That was one of the good bits though.

Up until now, I’ve been thinking of Whithouse as having every second episode being okay, alternating with utter duds – right down to his two-parter last year, which squandered a promising set-up and one of the best cliff-hangers in Who history with a limp fish, damp squib, and soggy ghost of a follow-up.

This ep threw that out, and I’ll probably remove any benefit-of-the-doubt I gave his previous eps on rewatch. “They made it untrackable, so I tracked it with this tracker!” The monks not only have no motivation revealed, they literally don’t have any lines. The Doctor tricking Bill with regeneration energy – ‘’too much?” is not only vicious and callous, but doesn’t make any sense as she has no idea what regeneration or ‘regen energy’ is. The Doctor DEFINITELY acted as a collaborator and facilitator of the fascist regime for six months, just in CASE Bill wasn’t secretly a rebel in her own secret thoughts. I’m not sure Missy actually had a chance to be told about what was going on in any way? Unless the line about the door is meant to imply she’s sneaking out? Why was gun bloke using a Walkman with a cassette? Had they all brought tape walkmens? If so, did Bill have to record her message onto each one’s built-in mic at 90 minutes a go? If so, why was it so studio-clear? What if one of them had a playback-only Walkman, like the majority of all sold? There are only 12 monks worldwide? Do they have more than one pyramid, or did the one just move to London? Bristol? after Bill invited them? If the pyramids fly, rather than materialising, why did nobody see it land the first time?

I thought the point was not so much 'the power of lurrrrrve' as 'the power of imagination', which is a bit cleverer no?

It was at least set up, but still played as yet another bloody power of love ending.

I thought it did a good job of portraying a dystopia effectively within the time and budget constraints of one episode, and a had a solidly good and controversial message (if we remember it's for kids) about bad people making you think it has to be this way.

Yeah this was good too.

Random question for Who nerds: whatever happened to Paul Cornell? How come the guy responsible for the two best Nu-Who episodes never got asked back?

Two best my steaming arse: don’t break time not because of paradoxes, but bcz space dragons will appear and bite you. And a) the book of Human Nature was 1000x better and b) RTD claims he wrote most of the screen version.

That said Cornell is obv one of the best and most important Who writers ever and I wish he had come back in the Moffatt era, but: at various times he has either been busy with his American superhero writing career taking off, and seizing all those opportunities; or had his own pilot under development; or mor recently returned to Who in comics instead with IDW’s The Girl Who Watched Dr Who (excellent), Titan’s Four Doctors miniseries (utterly terrible), and the Third Doctor mini just this year (delightful on most levels). He has quit writing anything he doesn’t own going forward though, so that’s yer lot. (I guess he can still write Benny if the mood strikes.)

The Doctor DEFINITELY acted as a collaborator and facilitator of the fascist regime for six months

I didn't mind this - it felt like one of those Moffat-y dangling threads that gets resolved in the finale. But we'll see. Thought the episode was FUN enough that I didn't mind the very sloppy plotting (and ending).

Interesting re: Cornell. I wasn't talking about the space dragons episode but Human Nature as a two-parter. If that was mostly RTD, where was that version of him hiding for four seasons?

...I'd probably read the comics but find the art too off-puttingly awful.

The Doctor tricking Bill with regeneration energy – ‘’too much?” is not only vicious and callous, but doesn’t make any sense as she has no idea what regeneration or ‘regen energy’ is.

Yeah this was my top nitpick in terms of visual and emotional storytelling. She didn't get a chance to say "WTF WAS THAT?"

Perfect opportunity for an "I'll explain later!"

"You'll find out soon enough!"

Perfect opportunity for an "I'll explain later!"

Doesn't work if she's meant to THINK HE'S DYING BECAUSE OF THE golden Jesusy glow at the time

Interesting...If that was mostly RTD, where was that version of him hiding for four seasons?

Well, he was working off Cornell's original novel and screenplay. Just adding dumb and bad shit to it.

...I'd probably read the comics but find the art too off-puttingly awful.

Art on the Girl Who Watched gets the job done (it's the bloke he did Knight & Squire with), art on Four Doctors is far worse than the script, art on the Third Doctor mini is occasionally obv copied from old promo photos, but really does work at capturing a Pertwee era with no budget restrictions.

I enjoyed the performances in this but the story was really "The Doctor and Bill are our heroes so let's let them off the hook for the cascading reprehensible shit they've done for the six-month interim between the cliffhanger episode and the resolution, did you all catch the cassette player? #GenX"

IMO the weakest of the season by a long shot. Still love Pearl Mackie, though.