I have had it up to here waiting for the Beatles catalogue to be remastered

Listening to sgt pepper following this thread, it's the first time I notice that some songs are simply guitar/bass/drums/piano (mainly) and could have been played live

it was most the technology that was lacking, like perhaps technically they could "play it live" but the material required dynamics that couldn't be replicated live, not with constant screaming and mid-60s monitor tech. "A Day in the Life" would have to be on an electric keyboard using electric guitars, any fills Ringo does would have to be loud and leaden lest they evaporate into the sound of screaming fans. imaging trying to do the quiet part to "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds" while you are having trouble hearing yourself scream the words to "Twist and Shout".

they could probably do a rough version of "Rain" but it really wouldn't be the same as the record, which had all kinds of crazy production tricks including backwards vocals. i guess they could do tape loops but syncing that live would be hell.

Best solution I can think of to perform the orchestrated stuff live using 1967 tech would be to have Paul play a Mellotron for brass/strings, and make some custom tapes with backwards guitar, tape loops, and other effects to replace the standard taped notes on the high end of the keyboard

I'm trying to think when double bass became more defined as a technique. A lot of the jazz and jazz-influenced guys - or even Moon - sort of used them sporadically and sloppily, and not how they're used in metal or hard rock. Billy Cobham?

― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, April 22, 2017 9:38 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It took me a good decade-plus to figure out exactly what Moon was doing with his double-bass setup. Live, he was constantly -- and thrillingly and bafflingly -- using them, sometimes as grace notes/flams, sometimes as heavy reinforcement, sometimes -- as on the studio "Join Together" -- simply alternating, always as color. The reason metal and hard rock drummers aren't using them the way Moon is is because none of those drummers want to take the necessary risks to attempt that approach. Even Neil Peart realized that Moon's approach was ultimately out of reach for him: "when I first got into cover bands that played Who songs, I discovered I didn't like playing like Keith Moon. That was the important lesson that I learned, and I preferred a more compositional and organized...just as your playing should be a reflection of your nature, so mine is."

To paraphrase Andre Previn's famous quote about Duke Ellington, Neil Peart can play a 20-minute solo on his gargantuan set and every drummer in the room will say, "Oh, yes, that's done like this." But Keith Moon dances through the kit for half a second and I don't know what it is.

not with constant screaming and mid-60s monitor tech.

I don't think monitors of any kind* appeared on the scene until 1969, and even then it was just side-stage speakers for the vocals.

*At the Beatles Atlanta show in 1965, a local sound engineer set them up with monitors, which they loved. Epstein offered the guy a job, and was turned down:
http://www.cbs46.com/story/24667227/beatles-atlanta-65-the-most-memorable-show-of-the-tour

Keith Moon was insane and I'd wager he never played the same part the same way twice.

they have never performed anything from pepper (and revolver), even in video, have they ?

Well, there are promo clips for Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields. The orchestra session/party for A Day In The Life was filmed for a TV special or something that didn't happen, and it's been circulated as the "video" for the song but I'm not sure when it was actually edited together as a thing... might be some affected retro-trippiness in that one. Anyway, none of those are really "performing" the songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usNsCeOV4GM

"A Day in the Life" was made because Paul had recently got a 35mm camera was getting into home filmmaking. this led to "Magical Mystery Tour" but there was a time where they were planning on making an experimental film accompaniment to the entire "Pepper" project. it was probably only a thing for a week or so. it was 1967 and Paul ran the show and was super productive and i think this film was edited by him at the time. it is pretty terrific. some cool cameos in here from Mick Jagger and Keith Richards as well as i think The Fool, the artist collective that painted a lot of Beatle furniture (psychedelic pianos & a Rolls Royce) and designed the trippy sleeve for "Sgt. Pepper". (fwiw they have a wonderful album that is has a sort of bubblegum Incredible String Band flavor to it.)

this style of videos with no performance was kicked off in earnest with the clips for "Paperback Writer", "Day Tripper", and "Rain", songs all recorded during the "Revolver" sessions. they were pointedly NOT performing live on instruments for these videos. it was a new approach to pop presentation, the more abstract and sensational juxtaposed multi-media approach that MTV would use to great success. they were ahead of their time in this, and like other things that they were ahead of their time for it was an experiment that ended in disaster. "Magical Mystery Tour" was shown in b&w and panned, and their big Christmas single "Hello Goodbye", which depicted a full color performance of the "Sgt. Pepper" band, was botched. they were busted for i believe breaking BBC Union laws on miming, and re-cut and re-shot the film several times to try to appease regulations, all to no avail. so again they were too ahead of their time. "Hello Goodbye" ended up getting shown for the first time in 1968 as the soundtrack to a b&w film of people taking the train lol.

It may have been difficult to replicate 'A Day In The Life' live and it would have been expensive to try 'She's Leaving Home' or 'Within You Without You' live. All the others could have been performed live easily, with a bit of rearranging. I don't think that the production is all that essential to these songs - maybe it was in 1967... but y'know, it's not 1967 anymore. A lot of these songs stand up when shorn of their production, so the production doesn't matter. And thank fuck for that; because the production on Pepper sounds crude by 2017 standards and didn't sound ahead of its time as much as of its time, and I really wish people would stop pretending otherwise.

Hmmm, what would be an example of a Sgt. Pepper song that you think works in spite of its production?

Tim, do you really think the production is essential to these songs and that they don't stand up when shorn of their production?

I'd say the production is definitely essential to a few... Good Morning Good Morning, Lovely Rita, Fixing a Hole, Getting Better

or perhaps I should say the ARRANGEMENTS are essential

Y'see, that's where I'd disagree, because if the production was really that essential, the songs would fall to pieces without it. For example, the only thing added to 'Good Morning Good Morning' was animal noises and horns, and the song still works without them. The rest of them could be sung with just an acoustic guitar and voice and it would still hold up.

The production is probably the most essential on 'A Day In The Life', but most of the record is just standard Beatles material with a couple of things grafted on that the song would equally work well without.

IMHO the songs would all "work" with more basic arrangements, but it'd be a very very different listening experience, and much less of a thrilling mind-expanding journey or gauzy dreamy good trip or whatever.

I'd argue that the production on Sgt. Pepper's ceased to be "mind expanding" decades ago, as advances in recording technology have rendered it more and more of an antique with each passing year. Also, as much as a lot of these songs would work/hold up well when shorn of their production, I also think it's the weakest collection of material they put out post-Help! ...

it would have been expensive to try 'She's Leaving Home or 'Within You Without You' live

string quartet can play SLH. hire Indian musicians a la Concert for Bangladesh. the problem is 1967 concert sound technology vs. uncontrollably screaming crowds.

I'd say the production is definitely essential to a few... Good Morning Good Morning, Lovely Rita, Fixing a Hole, Getting Better

― Darin, Saturday, April 22, 2017 1:28 PM (thirty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

or perhaps I should say the ARRANGEMENTS are essential

Fixing and Hole and Getting Better both feature cool minimalist syncopated New Wave guitar arrangements that were written by rehearsing the songs over and over again. the upcoming box set will have a lot of these early takes, and you can hear for yourself. i think if they rehearsed Getting Better a bunch (and they did) that it would sound pretty futuristic, especially in 1967.

a lot of the production was simply amplification. you can't play acoustic guitar w no accompaniment quietly while singing at Shea Stadium with no monitor. it was technologically impossible in 1967, regardless of whether it is 2017 now.

Oh man, now there I've gotta differ, YS and LIB fall farrr short, and it at least ties with AR. As for mind expanding, I partly was thinking in the context of imaginary 1967 live performances and what they'd be like, and I do think it'd have been far less of an experience without all the sonic embellishments (ditto the Revolver songs imo). But also my own listening experiences... this album has a lot of flavor and mood and color, very warm, very enveloping. Doesn't feel antiquey to me but YMMV.

Xpost to turrican

xpost:

Well firstly, what makes you think that Beatles audiences in late 1967 or early 1968 would have been full of people screaming uncontrollably? Different times, people would surely have calmed their tits by then.

Was there any screaming when Lennon played Toronto in '69? When Wings played universities in the early '70s? If The Beatles had played in front of an audience instead of on the rooftop in '69, I'd put a safe bet on there being no screaming then, either.

Fixing and Hole and Getting Better both feature cool minimalist syncopated New Wave guitar arrangements

Hmm. Yeah, no.

i am torn between wanting to demonstrate that the guitar plucks of getting better really are forward-thinking vs the conversation that all of this is ludicrous

conversation = realization

zen koan #2379

xp you a pro at harshing the Beatle buzz

I also think it's the weakest collection of material they put out post-Help! ...

You honestly rate Let it Be higher than Pepper?!

Oh man, now there I've gotta differ, YS and LIB fall farrr short, and it at least ties with AR.

I don't really consider Yellow Submarine to be a proper album, and I think Abbey Road is a superior collection of material and has aged better. Let It Be could have been a better final product than it is, but I prefer to listen to it over Sgt. Pepper's these days without a doubt.

As for mind expanding, I partly was thinking in the context of imaginary 1967 live performances and what they'd be like, and I do think it'd have been far less of an experience without all the sonic embellishments (ditto the Revolver songs imo). But also my own listening experiences... this album has a lot of flavor and mood and color, very warm, very enveloping. Doesn't feel antiquey to me but YMMV.

― long dark poptart of the rodeo (Doctor Casino), Saturday, April 22, 2017 6:18 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It probably sounded incredible to 1967 audiences, but that was 50 years ago. From where I'm sitting now, in 2017, it sounds like a record made in 1967, and there's no real getting around that.

well congrats on your ability to perceive the passage of time

what do you think is better than the Beatles? honestly curious, give us an album.

if there is a 2017 album that is better than "Sgt. Pepper" i'd like to hear it!

on multiple levels, what is the point? the strawman idea that without cool production techniques, the sgt pepper's songs would fall apart? i probably missed it upthread but i don't know who is arguing that. and then the idea that the beatles should have played live in 1967 because their audience was totally different than the one the year and would have stayed quiet? well...ok, i mean yeah. maybe they would have been cool. or maybe they would have screamed their guts out. but...who cares?

let's now hypothesize alternate realities where Lennon doesn't get shot

Karl, you've missed the point completely. The point was that, if indeed the production was essential to the tracks, then the tracks would fall apart if shorn of the production. The songs on Sgt. Pepper's would still work without the production, even if they aren't particularly the Beatles best batch of songs.

no, this is exactly what i'm talking about.

"The songs on Sgt. Pepper's would still work without the production"

who is arguing otherwise?

hey, you see that barge over there? if you add another 20 pounds of cargo to it, it still floats.

Adam Bruneau now exhibiting classic symptoms of someone who genuinely believes that The Beatles are the be-all-and-end-all of everything. Yawn.

Karl, it's all up there ^ if you can be arsed to read it. But since you can't, there was some discussion of how easy it would have been for the band to play the Sgt. Pepper's tracks live in 1967. The idea was then put forward that the production isn't essential and that the tracks could have been performed in the standard way and still come across well.

I saw someone try to play Xenakis' Persepolis once with just an acoustic guitar and voice. Totally couldn't pull it off. That record is now invalid.

Again, completely missing the point.

I feel like each of us in this thread is slowly transforming into different aspects of Geir.

"Fixing a Hole" would lose almost nothing if it was played live with Lennon on keys. They could pretty much pull off the whole thing.

^ Exactly!

Maybe if they were playing it at a house show and you could hear said keys. (Also, who's going to play rhythm guitar then?)

(Harpsichords are also kinda, uh, large. Did any bands tour with that kind of gear/overhead back then?)

I think Vox and Farfisa organs had harpsichord settings. Lennon's playing, what, a Vox at the '65 Shea Stadium show?

Rhythm guitar on "Fixing a Hole" - where is it??? Wikipedia says there's an acoustic on there...

Again, completely missing the point.

― ...so music and chicken have become intertwined (Turrican), Saturday, April 22, 2017 3:00 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sure, I think most of us are. What difference does it make if the songs "stand up" with or without production? The record's great as it is, and the whole reason they made it (and the only reason George didn't quit) is for the record to take the place of touring.

And what are we considering "production"? Additional instrumentation? Arrangements? Compression? How much compression? Overdubs? Which overdubs? Tape effects? Suggestions made by Emerick and/or Martin regarding how close the singers should stand to the mics?

The Shea instrument is indeed a Vox Continental. It had some sliders to adjust the sound but no 'instrument' patches like you'd see in synths later on. Wiki gives a nice lineup of famous tracks on which it can be heard - it's the California Sun/Light My Fire/I'm A Believer/Sir Douglas Quintet sound.

Meh. The record has some occasionally stunning moments - 'A Day In The Life' being the real achievement. As a collection of songs, though? Meh.

Odessey and Oracle still remains a far stronger record, as does the two LP's Small Faces did for Immediate.

I've read that the double manual Vox Continental had a harpsichord setting. They're the red buttons. I think it was just reeds and flutes for the single manual. Farfisas had a row of voice buttons.

There was an American band called the Mandrake Memorial who were signed to Poppy/MGM. I seem to recall that their first album has lots of fake harpsichord on it.

My suggestion, though, is that the Beatles could have made do with compact organ and/or electric piano on a certain amount of their material from this period, but Lennon would probably have had to be the guy a lot.

huh, didn't find anything about that other version of the continental, my bad!

apparently with a little modding you could get god knows what sounds out of these things. clearly they should have just hired this guy along to back them up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3DxMX7xDy4