At what point did Jimmy Page realize his band was now on a downward arc?

yea he was the only one, JPJ and Page didn't.

where there's all this dark, weird energy going on

Yeah, totally. There was definitely a weird energy going on. A Presence, you could say.

Why didn't JP and JPJ go?

According to Richard Cole, JPJ was "out of contact" and "only knew to be in New Orleans for the show at the Superdome." No one could find Jimmy. Peter Grant didn't go, either.

I didn't used to be a big fan of "All of My Love" but once I learned it was about Karac it had a much bigger impact on me.

it's funny because in so many ways Zep is softer and more 60s and more pastoral and world music and less overtly occult and dark and "heavy metal" than sabbath lyrically and musically -- but they have so much more genuine dread and darkness to me, like sabbath ultimately seem like a bunch of goons who did drugs a lot and did a lot of stupid shit but zep seemed like a malevolent occult rock mafia operation

comparison to the end of goodfellas is apt

i love that bit in Hammer of the Gods when Peter Grant goes up and introduces himself to Bob Dylan and says "hey, i manage the Zeppelin." then Dylan deadpans "I don't come to you with my problems."

I'm sleep deprived and I first misread that sentence as "introduced himself AS Bob Dylan" and wondered what stones it would take to go up to Bob Dylan and say you're Bob Dylan

Dylan would still respond, "I don't come to you with my problems."

xp sort of otm. sabbath is really easy for me to dismiss. like, yeah it's dark but it's sort of stupid and dull. zep can be stupid and dull but the dark shades to them actually manage to be alluring even to people like me who hate that sort of thing.

(i should note that i love sabbath musically but their "evil" stuff feels a bit carnival haunted house, though the riffs could not be argued with)

bill magill is going to fite u

the scope of Zeppelin's success has a lot to do with that darkness though- all of the insane sexual/chemical excess followed by all the aforementioned tragedy- more people, more money, more craziness... what size venues were Sabbath playing at their peak in the 70s?

zep also didn't have a lot of 'friends', musicwise, adds to the cult aura

bill magill is going to fite u

― mookieproof, Monday, April 3, 2017 12:07 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha where is bill? bench-pressing with a cig in his mouth somewhere hopefully

zep also didn't have a lot of 'friends', musicwise, adds to the cult aura

― global tetrahedron, Monday, April 3, 2017 12:13 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yah they were very insular and seemed to sort of have a weird fuck u kinda grudge against other big stars, i suppose it didn't help that i think the stones, ex beatles, and the who didn't exactly respect zep too much

i know iommi and bonham were tight, the band was friends w/fairport

but yeah they weren't like hanging around with keith moon, harry nilsson, mick jagger or whatever random assemblage of rock stars are LA clubs

i know iommi and bonham were tight, the band was friends w/fairport

The Midlands music scene that Plant and Bonham came out of seems to have been notably tight and friendly, so no surprise that they'd get on well with Brummie musicians, like Iommi and Dave Pegg. John Paul Jones and Page, on the other hand, seemed to have a sort of haughty session pro thing going on.

i think keith richards still makes disparaging remarks about zeppelin. about bonham especially, afaik

Zeppelin > Stones imo, keith has lots of terrible opinions

no question... the stones have no riffs

Stones weren't really a 'big riff' band tho.

I hated the Stones for years and didn't get into them until my 30s but they definitely scratch a different itch (one that I never knew needed scratching).

Zep are better IMO but that's cos I'm a fist pumper for life

not to mention when you have a singer that can actually sing it allows you to do shit like "Since I've Been Loving You" or "Dazed and Confused"

"at what point did Jagger/Richards realize their band was on a downward arc" would be a funny thread, except I doubt Jagger/Richards have ever admitted this to themselves

what's the itch? i'm not old enough to need it scratched yet i guess xxp

no question... the stones have no riffs

I'm assuming this is a joke?

The Stones are evil too, and in a much more nuanced way. Sorry, the occult stuff has it's limits.

Jagger: We've been on a steady decline ain't we mate?
Richards: Aye, mate. I ain't written a good lick since Some Girls
Jagger: Why do we do this then?
Richards: performing live loosens my bowels

xxxpost well I had limits for how far I went into blues-rock that wasn't of the "stoner metal" variety and listening to Exile after I got into the blues outright helped me appreciate it since it is more indebted to the blues/country etc than their rock 'n roll side of house on that album. from there just kinda worked backwards.

w/ that being said I don't listen to them anywhere near as much as Zep though.

I think it's fair to say Stones weren't like a 'riff first band' like a Sabbath or even a Zep even if it was easy as hell to appreciate Keith's guitarwork.

I don't think this a pejorative thing though

i think keith richards still makes disparaging remarks about zeppelin. about bonham especially, afaik

Why would he be disparaging about Bonham? Not his drumming that's for sure!

no question... the stones have no riffs

I'm assuming this is a joke?

― Bill Teeters (Tom D.), Monday, April 3, 2017 2:02 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well, compared to Zep...

the iconic Stones riffs are "Satisfaction" and... hmmm

riffs =/= chord progressions & rhythm parts. most stones songs are defined by keith's rhythm guitar. there isn't a lot of riffage like with Zep & Sabbath

xp yeah 'Satisfaction' is the only one i can think of. 'Start Me Up' is iconic but that's not really a riff, it's a rhythm part

Obviously a riff has to be iconic before some people notice it.

i think keith richards still makes disparaging remarks about zeppelin. about bonham especially, afaik
Why would he be disparaging about Bonham? Not his drumming that's for sure!
― Bill Teeters (Tom D.), Monday, April 3, 2017 1:09 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

looks like he has rude things to say about pretty much everybody:
http://ultimateclassicrock.com/keith-richards-led-zeppelin-comment/

xxpost now you've lost me. like are you saying a rhythm guitarist isn't playing "riffs"?

is Sabbath's "Sweet Leaf" not a riff?

'Start Me Up' is iconic but that's not really a riff, it's a rhythm part

Everyone agrees what a riff is, do they? I don't know, I'm asking.

"Whole Lotta Love", is that a riff or a 'rhythm part'?

to me a "riff" is a lead line, not full strumming. idk i've thought about this a lot and haven't really come to a rock solid conclusion

whole lotta love is a riff, so is sweat leaf.... i need to gather my thoughts on this. bc start me up is definitely not a riff...

"Start Me Up" is a riff.

i'd say it's more of a lick

That's my take on it anyway, riffs tend to be rhythm guitar based, "Satisfaction" is more of a lead line actually.

Can't You Hear Me Knocking, riff or lick?

xxxxpost Whole Lotta is a riff to my ears. to me what makes a riff vs a 'chord progression' = whether it stands out on its own. can you hum it? or is it more ancillary, specifically meant to serve as the foundation for the vocals and doesn't really stand out as memorable by itself?

maybe not the best rubric but idk

Brown Sugar, Jumping Jack Flash, Street Fighting Man, Get Off of My Cloud, Bitch, The Last Time, 19th Nervous Breakdown, Honky Tonk Women, Tumbling Dice, Start Me Up, Beast Of Burden...

Are we really discussing this? I agree they are different bands and this might also be a question of defining a riff or even a "riff band" or whatever. Probably healthier to stick to the Sabbath comparisons. The Stones are playing on a different level completely. That sounds sort of smug but I actually believe it completely so fuck it.

LOL @ "The Stones have no riffs", flappy you truly are the gift that keeps on giving. You not understanding what a riff is has bizarrely made my day. Well done!

Yes, a riff can be a rhythm part. Therefore, 'Start Me Up' is a riff, 'Sweet Leaf' is a riff, the chord progression to 'Smells Like Teen Spirit', played in the way it is played, is a riff. Now crawl back under a rock. Next you'll be telling us all George Martin wasn't a musician...

...ah wait, you did!

Turrican, I will admit- for the most part, Animal Collective do not have riffs.

it was only a matter of time before Led Zeppelin tore us apart. and weirdly without Bill Magill

ILM has a passionate Stones fanbase which doesn't let offhanded dismissive remarks slide. As it should.

That reminds me of some anecdote I read a long time ago about a band in the late '90s that approached JPJ to do some orchestral arrangements, and he quoted them a fee that was "...equivalent to the combined budgets for the first couple Zep albums..." and the band balked. This was funny because this was a pretty huge band* and probably could have easily afforded it.

*Whom I don't remember...I wanna saw it was the Chili Peps, but didn't Jones work them earlier?

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/dec/19/robbie-williams-wins-pool-planning-victory-over-jimmy-page