At what point did Jimmy Page realize his band was now on a downward arc?

Page's "lady friend" as if a couple of years ago is an attractive redhead in her mid-'20s. I think he's probably doing OK.

*as of

There's obv some good stuff on both Presence and Door, but the downward arc began after Physical Graffiti. That was their last top-to-bottom classic IMO.

what a miserable interview. "i learned how to feel through listening to jimmy's music." goes a long way in explaining the utter poverty of jeff koons's artistic output.

Couldn't agree more. It's not often that I feel embarrassed for a celebrity but I did here

I'd say you could look at their 1977 tour as when Led Zep probably started to come unwound. All that went down in Oakland with Bill Graham's people was pretty dark and outlined in detail in Graham's autobiography. The day after that incident, Robert Plant's son died and they never played live in the US again.

I think this quote from Page sums it up: "I only got into heroin because I thought it could make me more creative. That was a big mistake."

(from Barney Hoskyns' oral history book)

Lol

what went down in Oakland in 1977?

from wiki

The tour also experienced some unsavory backstage problems, exacerbated by the hiring of London gangster John Bindon as Led Zeppelin's security coordinator. After a 23 July show at the "Day on the Green" festival at Oakland–Alameda County Coliseum in Oakland, California, Bindon, band manager Peter Grant, tour manager Richard Cole, and band member John Bonham were arrested after a member of promoter Bill Graham's staff was beaten after the performance. Graham's security man Jim Matzorkis had assaulted Peter Grant's 11-year-old son Warren for allegedly taking a dressing room sign. This was seen by Bonham, who then walked over and kicked the man. Later, when Grant heard about this, he went into the trailer, along with Bindon and assaulted the man with tour manager Richard Cole guarding the door. Bindon had stated he was provoked by members of Graham's crew prior to the incident.

Led Zeppelin's second Oakland show took place only after Bill Graham signed a letter of indemnification absolving Led Zeppelin from responsibility for the previous night's incident. However, Graham refused to honour the letter and assault charges were laid against Grant, Cole, Bindon, and Bonham when the band arrived back at their hotel. The four received bail, whereupon a suit was filed against them by Graham for $2 million. All four pleaded nolo contendere, receiving suspended sentences and fines.

The following day's second Oakland concert would prove to be the band's final live appearance in the United States.

After the performance, news came that Plant's five-year-old son, Karac, had died from a stomach virus.

First - Graham's account of the incident documented in his book - doesn't seem to be avail to steal in epub format 😣

2nd - having a son die is enough to rethink your entire life and all the choices you've made. Much love and prayers to RP

the way he found out about his son's death was particularly devastating. two calls, hours apart, with drastically different messages

Don't have the book in front of me so if I remember right, but basically the guy was stopping the kid from taking down a sign, Bonzo and the LZ security dudes pulled the guy to a trailer, tied him up and then beat him up bad. Then someone else from Bill Graham went to this trailer to see what was going on, got pulled inside and himself got beat up. If I remember right, the first guy had a bunch of front teeth knocked out, so this was a pretty serious assault and even Peter Grant was in on the beatings (i think).

The wheels certainly came off quite spectacularly didn't they? Like, from the beginning of the band up until the first half of 1975, this band had such an incredible run of luck. Then there's basically this stretch of time from Plant's car crash up to Bonham's death where the band certainly weren't so lucky.

The end of the '77 tour is so horrible, and Plant...jesus to lose a child while yr on a tour where the guitarist is continually "sick", where there's all this dark, weird energy going on, like last 20 minutes of "Goodfellas"...The Hoskyns oral history covers it a lot, like how no one from Zep came to the funeral, Plant had fully retired from the band and Bonzo had to talk him back.

I've often wondered if part of Plant's hesitancy to go full on reunion has something to do with the '77 flame out.

like how no one from Zep came to the funeral

Bonham did, didn't he?

yea he was the only one, JPJ and Page didn't.

where there's all this dark, weird energy going on

Yeah, totally. There was definitely a weird energy going on. A Presence, you could say.

Why didn't JP and JPJ go?

According to Richard Cole, JPJ was "out of contact" and "only knew to be in New Orleans for the show at the Superdome." No one could find Jimmy. Peter Grant didn't go, either.

I didn't used to be a big fan of "All of My Love" but once I learned it was about Karac it had a much bigger impact on me.

it's funny because in so many ways Zep is softer and more 60s and more pastoral and world music and less overtly occult and dark and "heavy metal" than sabbath lyrically and musically -- but they have so much more genuine dread and darkness to me, like sabbath ultimately seem like a bunch of goons who did drugs a lot and did a lot of stupid shit but zep seemed like a malevolent occult rock mafia operation

comparison to the end of goodfellas is apt

i love that bit in Hammer of the Gods when Peter Grant goes up and introduces himself to Bob Dylan and says "hey, i manage the Zeppelin." then Dylan deadpans "I don't come to you with my problems."

I'm sleep deprived and I first misread that sentence as "introduced himself AS Bob Dylan" and wondered what stones it would take to go up to Bob Dylan and say you're Bob Dylan

Dylan would still respond, "I don't come to you with my problems."

xp sort of otm. sabbath is really easy for me to dismiss. like, yeah it's dark but it's sort of stupid and dull. zep can be stupid and dull but the dark shades to them actually manage to be alluring even to people like me who hate that sort of thing.

(i should note that i love sabbath musically but their "evil" stuff feels a bit carnival haunted house, though the riffs could not be argued with)

bill magill is going to fite u

the scope of Zeppelin's success has a lot to do with that darkness though- all of the insane sexual/chemical excess followed by all the aforementioned tragedy- more people, more money, more craziness... what size venues were Sabbath playing at their peak in the 70s?

zep also didn't have a lot of 'friends', musicwise, adds to the cult aura

bill magill is going to fite u

― mookieproof, Monday, April 3, 2017 12:07 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha where is bill? bench-pressing with a cig in his mouth somewhere hopefully

zep also didn't have a lot of 'friends', musicwise, adds to the cult aura

― global tetrahedron, Monday, April 3, 2017 12:13 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yah they were very insular and seemed to sort of have a weird fuck u kinda grudge against other big stars, i suppose it didn't help that i think the stones, ex beatles, and the who didn't exactly respect zep too much

i know iommi and bonham were tight, the band was friends w/fairport

but yeah they weren't like hanging around with keith moon, harry nilsson, mick jagger or whatever random assemblage of rock stars are LA clubs

i know iommi and bonham were tight, the band was friends w/fairport

The Midlands music scene that Plant and Bonham came out of seems to have been notably tight and friendly, so no surprise that they'd get on well with Brummie musicians, like Iommi and Dave Pegg. John Paul Jones and Page, on the other hand, seemed to have a sort of haughty session pro thing going on.

i think keith richards still makes disparaging remarks about zeppelin. about bonham especially, afaik

Zeppelin > Stones imo, keith has lots of terrible opinions

no question... the stones have no riffs

Stones weren't really a 'big riff' band tho.

I hated the Stones for years and didn't get into them until my 30s but they definitely scratch a different itch (one that I never knew needed scratching).

Zep are better IMO but that's cos I'm a fist pumper for life

not to mention when you have a singer that can actually sing it allows you to do shit like "Since I've Been Loving You" or "Dazed and Confused"

"at what point did Jagger/Richards realize their band was on a downward arc" would be a funny thread, except I doubt Jagger/Richards have ever admitted this to themselves

what's the itch? i'm not old enough to need it scratched yet i guess xxp

no question... the stones have no riffs

I'm assuming this is a joke?

The Stones are evil too, and in a much more nuanced way. Sorry, the occult stuff has it's limits.

Jagger: We've been on a steady decline ain't we mate?
Richards: Aye, mate. I ain't written a good lick since Some Girls
Jagger: Why do we do this then?
Richards: performing live loosens my bowels

xxxpost well I had limits for how far I went into blues-rock that wasn't of the "stoner metal" variety and listening to Exile after I got into the blues outright helped me appreciate it since it is more indebted to the blues/country etc than their rock 'n roll side of house on that album. from there just kinda worked backwards.

w/ that being said I don't listen to them anywhere near as much as Zep though.

I think it's fair to say Stones weren't like a 'riff first band' like a Sabbath or even a Zep even if it was easy as hell to appreciate Keith's guitarwork.

I don't think this a pejorative thing though

i think keith richards still makes disparaging remarks about zeppelin. about bonham especially, afaik

Why would he be disparaging about Bonham? Not his drumming that's for sure!

no question... the stones have no riffs

I'm assuming this is a joke?

― Bill Teeters (Tom D.), Monday, April 3, 2017 2:02 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well, compared to Zep...

the iconic Stones riffs are "Satisfaction" and... hmmm

riffs =/= chord progressions & rhythm parts. most stones songs are defined by keith's rhythm guitar. there isn't a lot of riffage like with Zep & Sabbath

xp yeah 'Satisfaction' is the only one i can think of. 'Start Me Up' is iconic but that's not really a riff, it's a rhythm part

Riff, you say.

https://68.media.tumblr.com/36b0f503e33b0c8ca4522025768468e3/tumblr_o0231eomC41tjydheo1_400.gif

Dudes, don't worry too much about Page getting overshadowed by Eddie. He got out on the frontier again a few years later when he started The Firm, thus providing the blueprint for shitty post-DLR Van Halen albums.

radioactive is a great jawn

Dudes, don't worry too much about Page getting overshadowed by Eddie. He got out on the frontier again a few years later when he started The Firm, thus providing the blueprint for shitty post-DLR Van Halen albums.

ultimately i wonder if the answer to the thread's title question isn't the year that very photo was taken, 1993

The year that The Complete Studio Recordings was released? Maybe.

Correct answer: never because every Zep record rules

hell yeah

xpost exactly. thread over.

now back to riffs vs. licks

hell. yes.

If you need a date-based answer, Ecomium was released in 1995.

I am not so sure that the glue to that band was John Paul Jones, he probably has been involved in the most interesting music after the band. His solo record 'Zooma' is quite good, the record with Galas is pretty good, he did string arrangements on REM's "Drive" and produced the Butthole Surfers.

Was reading an interview w/Paul Leary the other day where he said JPJ was a horrible drunk during the Wormhole sessions, wonder if that might be why Jimmy and Plant didn't invite him on No Quarter?

Weird, I remember jpj claiming the opposite - that Gibby was too drunk to perform the vocal on "Alcohol" ("so that was kind of poetic")

hahaha well I for one have a hard time believing Gibby Haynes of the popular straight edge band Butthole Surfers was wasted in the mid 90s, likely story JPJ

obvs any butthole is an unreliable narrator, but the way leary phrased it this was by jpj's own admission, tho also not hard to believe plant/page assholically snubbing the man who made ittod listenable for no quarter

Thought that stood for In Their Time of Dying at first.

Gibby:

When the “Independent Worm Saloon LP” was released in 1993 after Nirvana broke, it was produced by John Paul Jones, how did that work for you guys?

Oh, yeah, he was like a horrible drunk when we were doing that record, but we were loaded too. We spent so much money on that record! We basically spent a fortune to hang out with some guy from Led Zeppelin!

That reminds me of some anecdote I read a long time ago about a band in the late '90s that approached JPJ to do some orchestral arrangements, and he quoted them a fee that was "...equivalent to the combined budgets for the first couple Zep albums..." and the band balked. This was funny because this was a pretty huge band* and probably could have easily afforded it.

*Whom I don't remember...I wanna saw it was the Chili Peps, but didn't Jones work them earlier?

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/dec/19/robbie-williams-wins-pool-planning-victory-over-jimmy-page