Depeche Mode - Spirit

more than any local band?

Just finished watching that video with Pareles and it's a REALLY good discussion. (Pareles trips himself up a couple of times but it's all good and the audience questions are astonishingly all kinda great, a rarity. AND there's even plenty of discussion about subjects we've raised on this thread -- there's even a Cure/Depeche live comparison courtesy Fletch!)

Their comments on how they feel about tribute acts seem to have rubbed a few people up the wrong way. On one hand, I completely understand where Martin comes from when he says he finds it weird... it must be odd to watch footage of tribute acts while actually being the person that's being imitated. On the other, when Dave said he found it "a bit sad" I was like "eh?" considering he was talking about pretending to be Bowie in the mirror in his room when he was a teenager. A tribute act is exactly that, a way for fans to express how much they love the music. Gahan seems to have these occasional moments of acting a bit big headed.

I enjoyed Martin talking about the inspiration behind 'Home' amongst the well-worn anecdotes about leaving the snare off 'Master and Servant' etc.

Well, there IS a world of difference between just trying to be Bowie (or whoever) in your bedroom as a teen and being a member of a tribute band as your main actual musical endeavor, say. (That said I'm not trying to outright trash anyone in such a path -- the turn of the century documentary _Tribute_ is essential watching in this regard.)

Hmm, not really... it still boils down to the same thing for me, which is just fans expressing love for their favourite artists' music and I really don't see anything wrong with that. Just one is done in private, and the other is done in front of people that feel the same way.

Then again, there are more than a few fans that are still upset with their post-Violator live setup of acoustic drums and Martin playing more guitar onstage than keyboards, and some of the tribute bands play not only with the old school all-keyboards setup but they also tend to play songs that Depeche Mode seldom touch live anymore. Maybe this also rubs the band up the wrong way, especially when some fans make comment that the band themselves should be doing what the tribute acts are doing.

The core impulse may be the same but I think you're handwaving the private/public difference quite a bit! (Especially since tribute bands in general aren't just performing for charity or shits and giggles.) And yeah, if it's a case where a band is out to play a 'real' Depeche set in some eyes -- four members, a manque Alan, no drums -- then I think the actual band might be a bit 'uh, well, we are here rather than there, y'know.'

Yeah, they must get seriously fucked off at this stage, 22 years down the line, being asked whether or not Alan is coming back when it's clear he isn't. For better or for worse, the band they have evolved into since his departure are the band they are now and it's what they want to do, which is fair enough.

For a certain group of people, though, it seems that they view the acoustic drums, the increased use of guitar live, the focus on "bluesy" elements etc. etc. as some sort of betrayal.

Clearly Alan Wilder was the final filter and magic sauce for this group. Ever since his departure they've occasionally showed flickers of their original greatness but not really.

Err Ultra and Playing the Angel are as good if not better than anything they released with Wilder

For a certain group of people, though, it seems that they view the acoustic drums, the increased use of guitar live, the focus on "bluesy" elements etc. etc. as some sort of betrayal.

I admit I find this mindset (which I agree you can easily see around) pretty funny because this was well on the way when Alan was still in the band, as SOFAD clearly shows. Hell, *he* was the drummer on that tour. I will say I'm glad I got to see what turned out to be the last no-drums tour in 1990, not that they or anyone knew it at the time -- the point was, they had gotten that far, ie world conqueringly huge, without such a setup. (And I think it's interesting still that there's almost no mention of the fact that thirty-five plus years in even if they have a touring drummer, they have never had a bassist live -- that element, in whatever form, has always been electronic.)

And separately I agree with Baaderonix obv.

Anyway supposedly the album has leaked, which given it's four days from release isn't surprising. But I figure a formal stream has to turn up...somewhere?

I think the number one reason they have a drummer is for the visual, to take up space, since obviously they don't "need" a drummer. And of course there is still tons of programmed percussion.

Hilariously, when I saw Dolly Parton last year she had everything *but* a drummer. She jokingly (maybe?) claimed there was some last minute conflict and they couldn't get a new guy in time, which was of course bullshit. Last year the Pet Shop Boys toured with I think three band members, two playing drums, but obviously they didn't need them; the tour before that was just the Boys and two dancers, and it was just as good. One of the best shows I've ever seen was Saint Etienne with a full band. I saw them on some subsequent tour, with a lot of canned music, and it was nowhere near as good, imo.

Gahan's often said that having a live drummer behind him helps him to perform better as he can feel some kind of energy coming off the live kit, and I can completely understand that.

And yeah, the whole live drumming thing started at the end of Alan's stint with the band, and I think there was a lot about the Songs of Faith and Devotion period that was a shock to fans and critics alike.

I think what it is, is that some electronic music/synthpop fans have an anti-rock stance and they're disappointed that one of the bigger bands that has emerged in the genre don't share this viewpoint. They're mystified as to why the band needed to incorporate such "rock" elements into their sound when they managed to become so successful just by performing as 3 keyboards, drum machines (+ backing) and Dave.

Of course, it was a creative decision that led to those elements appearing in the first place, so that the band could avoid stagnating. They seem to have managed stagnating in other ways, though.

Both Ultra and Playing the Angel are good records, IMO... Ultra in particular is easily as good as anything with Wilder in the band. What finally put the Alan thing to rest for me is when I heard his mix of 'In Chains' and didn't think he'd made that much of a difference to the overall quality of the song.

I feel like the "no drums, no guitars" synth-only Depeche Mode fans are few and far between, especially in the US? I'm sure they're vocal about it, but that's an ahistorical view of when and how the band's been most successful.

To be fair, a lot of it REALLY had to do with the (obviously still lingering) snobbism about 'not real instruments, not a real band, fuck you' from unreconstructed rockism or whatever you want to call it. I'm not saying an equivalent bias is any better, but the arc from 'four guys in a pub with their synths under their arms' to Violator heights over the course of a decade is a pretty compelling narrative, and nostalgia has a lot to factor into it.

Yeah, that's precisely where I think the whole attitude comes from... this whole thing about Depeche Mode becoming successful on their own terms with a type of music that was deemed by rockists to be not "real" or "authentic" - particularly in the US ... it's not hard to see why hardcore/obsessive fans of electronic music would see this as some sort of victory, then be confounded when they increase the amount of "rock" elements into their sound/look. Depeche Mode adopted most of their "rock" tropes after they became successful. Gore played a little bit of guitar live during the Masses tour, but nowhere near the amount as he plays live these days.

Imagine Depeche's stage show being loose enough that they could throw in stuff like 'Lie To Me' or 'Pipeline' or 'Rush' or 'Shine' or 'Dangerous' or 'People Are People' or 'The Sun & The Rainfall' ...

At this point I might prefer this to the "new album once every four years, tour stadiums" formula they've stuck to for the past decade and a half. But on the last tour they did find ways to put new twists on older songs (remixed versions of "Pain That I'm Used To" and "Halo", looser intros to "Personal Jesus") and the new songs were featured prominently ("Goodbye" was the set closer when I saw them) so I don't think they're running in place and in need of a major creative shake-up (yet).

At this point I might prefer this to the "new album once every four years, tour stadiums" formula they've stuck to for the past decade and a half.

Ha, that was the first thing I asked Gore two years back:

This is something I've just noticed as a listener: it seems to be a pattern of about four years or so between Depeche albums, and then the solo projects emerge in the time between. So I was almost not surprised when I heard word of MG coming out. Is there any sort of actual plan at work, or to things just happen as they do?

Martin Gore: Boy, it's true that were are on a kind of four-year cycle, and it's been happening like that for a while now. You know, we finish a tour, usually, and then there's either a break period or a time when we start thinking about doing something in a solo context, and then there's getting back to writing for the band, and then there's the recording for the band, and then after the release, we go on a tour, and that usually takes up the four years. That's just the way it is these days. It's difficult — I don't think we particularly want to speed that process up, because we all have families, and I think you need that kind of break anyway, if you're going to keep up any kind of quality control.

Compare that with The Cure where there doesn't even seem to be any solo creative impulse in between the 4-8 year album cycle.

Well now it's 9! Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if there's no new Cure album ever again.

Yeah, this 4:14 Scream album seems like it's never gonna get released.

Or any of the remaining remasters.

Also, how much longer could Depeche Mode possibly carry on for? At the rate of one LP/tour every four years, maybe one or two more records at a push?

Also, not even Corbijn's skills with a camera can disguise that the band members are beginning to look ancient. Particularly Fletch.

Yeah seems likely. I think RS has realized that the well has run dry and there's no point in forcing it. Admirable in a way but pretty sad considering the gift he used to have

Oops that was xxpost

Also, not even Corbijn's skills with a camera can disguise that the band members are beginning to look ancient. Particularly Fletch.

Less ancient in Fletch's case and more comfortable grand-dad. Which I believe he is by now.

Anyway as long as the Rolling Stones are continuing on, who knows what the limit will be. In four years' time both Gore and Gahan will still be in their fifties.

xxpost:

Yeah, it seems like RS has found a setup that works for him - he's able to play gigs and not have to even worry about or have the pressure of recording and putting out new material. He can play whatever he pleases and he knows he's got an audience. What a position to be in.

I feel like anti-rockism is almost as dumb as rockism re:Turrican's "real synth band" mentions

I was watching that modular synth documentary "I Dream of Wires" (which has Vince Clarke!) and at one point there was a strain of conversation/editing that set up this dichotomy between modular synths and the integrated/keyboard-based synthesizers that were more affordable ones the Casios of the world started manufacturing. While it didn't overwhelm it (and would have been crazy considering the range of artists interviewed) there was very nearly a pro-modular rockist (modularism?) thread. As if drawing a line between the expensive, tetchy modular gear and the affordable gear with more-traditional keyboards is a rhetorical stance.

If you're going to fault DM for using some guitars, why not go whole hog and say their entire brand was always culturally bankrupt because they never played buchla gear

You could look at that way, but then I'd have to point out that there's an ARP 2600 on Speak & Spell.

There seems to be a preference amongst newer bands these days for analogue synthesisers over digital synthesisers and even softsynths, in the same ways as guitarists love vintage guitars. However, the original crop of synthpop artists from the late '70s were always moving onto the next thing, equipment-wise. Midge Ure from Ultravox was describing the Minimoog as antique by '84. Gary Numan made his name with analogue synthesisers but would rather not use them. OMD and even Vince Clarke are using softsynths now.

*it

I think you're making points in the vein that I was using as an example of people being pedantic and asinine

xpost -- It can depend on the veteran artist, though -- Steve Roach, per my interview the other week:

http://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2017/03/steve-roach-interview?linkId=35319969

...was very, very vocal throughout about preferring analog synths and why.

DM, like NO, had access to some pretty $$$ equipment pretty early, iirc, once they moved beyond the DIY kit years. Anyway, I think the synths were almost always used in a pretty punk rock way, as a means for people of limited ability to get maximum results. Though it might have been in that aforementioned doc where Andy McCluskey somewhat defensibly notes that songwriting takes skill and work, even with synths and machines, and that if there was a button on his keyboard that simply said "hit" he'd be pressing it all the time.

xxpost:

The points still remain though, which are: the original crop of synth bands were always updating their equipment with the most up to date technology they could afford, which is why pop music went from being made with Minimoogs and CR-78's to Fairlights and Synclaviers within the space of a few years. The focus was always predominantly on the new - and secondly, that early in their career Depeche Mode were indeed using modulars.

Overall, though, the main reason is by the time The Human League and Depeche Mode arrived using all synthetics, guitar-oriented music was already decades old. Hence why synth music was initially deemed by rockists to be "inauthentic" ...

Personally, I don't really give a fuck what sort of equipment an electronic pop record was made on, as long as the sound design serves the material - I think the idea that an ARP 2500 is more "the real deal" than an Arturia softsynth is pretty silly, given that electronic music in general gets tagged as being inauthentic, even now amongst some.

they added some gear and made an electronic pop album with some guitar and drums

Yes, as a creative decision to keep things fresh (for them) and to prevent themselves from stagnating. Sadly, not everyone sees it that way.

[...] there's an ARP 2600 on Speak & Spell.

In fact, per Daniel Miller, S&S is almost entirely his ARP 2600, right down to the kick drums. I think he pushed them (by which I mean, Vince) into using it exclusively because it sounded so much nicer than the entry-level machines they'd been playing in pubs with. It's easy to overstate the 'synthpunk' aspect to this record - there's some lovely, painstaking sound design to be found throughout, in particular on 'Any Second Now'.
Neat factoid: Miller bought his 2600 second-hand from from an auction of equipment that had previously belonged to Elton John.

I agree, something like 'New Life' isn't really the sound of a bunch of people just turning their synths on and going for it... it sounds like every sound on there has been carefully thought out and it's superbly produced and full sounding. It's nowhere near as "synthpunk" like as Fad Gadget or even Miller's own The Normal single.

Meantime, if you remember this

http://www.avclub.com/article/depeche-mode-singer-calls-richard-spencer-cunt-252075

Full interview that's from:

http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/rock/7723868/depeche-mode-dave-gahan-spirit-politics-interview

Hahahaha! Gahan OTM. Excellent and apt choice of word, too.

Although, it has to be said, the word "cunt" is still quite an offensive term in the UK. Maybe the writer is confusing the UK with Australia.

This is great

Also something I only recently realized -- Martin's family history is well known now, but I hadn't realized that Dave is part Malaysian via his father.

(Which makes Spencer's claim even more of a 'uh...right, dude' situation.)

I didn't realise or even know that either!

Per Wikipedia -- and beyond that, this whole story is kinda fucked up:

Gahan was born as David Callcott into a working-class family, to parents Len Callcott (a bus driver) of Malaysian descent and his wife Sylvia (a conductress or "clippy" on London buses), Dave was only six months old when his father left the family. Sylvia and Len divorced two years later and his mother moved Dave and sister Sue (born 1960) to Basildon, Essex, after Sylvia met and married her second husband Jack Gahan (an administrator with Shell Oil). The Gahan family continued to grow with the birth of two more half-brothers Peter (born 1966) and Phil (born 1968). Dave and Sue were raised under the impression that their mother's second husband, Jack, was their natural father.

In 1972, when Gahan was 10 years old, his stepfather died. Gahan recalled how he "came home one day and found this bloke [his biological father] at home". Of the incident, he has said: "I'll never forget that day. When I came home from school, there was this stranger in my mum's house. My mother introduced him to me as my real dad. I remember I said, that was impossible because my father was dead. How was I supposed to know who that man was? From that day on, Len often visited the house, until one year later he disappeared again. Forever this time. Since then he had no contact with us. By growing older, I thought about him more and more. The only thing my mother would say, was that he moved out to Jersey to open a hotel." "Mum had kept it back from me 'til there was a need to tell me about my birth father, it's a different generation and you can understand I guess she thought she was doing the right thing"

So, has anyone actually heard this yet? It's been leaked for days, apparently.

C'mon people, yer letting me down etc.