pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

wait shakey doesnt like biggy?

west coast guy

that's... not an excuse

It's partially true that the Jay-Z/Biggie axis just didn't circulate as much out here, but that's not all of it. I can pinpoint watching the "Big Poppa" video as the exact point at which I realized that rap as a mainstream pop phenomenon had morphed into something I definitely did not like and tbh my opinion has never changed. Puffy was a blight on the genre, and his success was emblematic of everything that went wrong from that point on imo. I don't really care about his canonization, and while I will agree that he was a solid rapper I just hate the sound and the nihilistic mythology of his two records.

Pac's martyrdom/mythology isn't really much better but he at least had singles + producers + collaborators that I liked

Can you pinpoint watching the "Juicy" or "Hypnotize" videos and recognizing that they're some of the most incredible rapping to ever appear on a mainstream single?

*crosses shakey off list of ppl who can play my super nintendo & sega genesis*

I realized that rap as a mainstream pop phenomenon had morphed into something I definitely did not like and tbh my opinion has never changed

did you ever bother to listen to the actual albums and hear non-commercial, amazing songs like "the what" or "machine gun funk" or "10 crack commandments" or "warning"?

xp lol, i was gonna say this has the makings of a good ol' fashioned nerd fight and HERE WE ARE

with pitchdork banner in the background

sponsored by conde nast

you know what really might change my mind about Biggie? some retrospective Pfork reviews

i didn't want to spoil it shakes...but...you are in for a treat :)

birthdays was the worst days
for clicks pitchfork is so thir-stay

lol

classic m@tt responses itt

shakey have you really tried? like really?

Everyday Struggle? Unbelievable? Suicidal Thoughts? the ones shakedown mentioned?

I'm too old to "try" to like things - of course I know 10 Crack Commandments and Suicidal Thoughts c'mon bro

i just dont know man. cant fathom dislike for big on those grounds.

Yes, I enjoyed that. Michael Bolton seems like a pretty likeable guy.

the baconing of Michael Bolton is some bottom-tier kitsch barrel scraping imo. dude forever belongs as a punch line in an 80s Weird Al song.

NEVER GIVE UP SHAKEY YOU CAN LIKE A RAPPER YOU'RE ONLY AS OLD AS YOU FEEL!!!!

I feel like I don't get anything lyrically from his records that I couldn't get from Scarface tbh, whose stuff just *sounds* better. but to be clear a lot of my dislike of his catalog is how poorly served he was beat-wise - in contrast to the sample-heavy or g-funk stuff that immediately preceded him, to my ears a lot of what he got was short, shitty loops over shitty drums and it grates on my ears. for the most part the post-golden age rap stuff that I like that crossed over into pop success - whether it's Wu-Tang or Timbaland/Missy or various southern guys - just had more going on sonically. he was a solid rapper but that's not enough for me. and then when Puffy shows up to interject some nonsense I'm just like arrrrrggggh get me outta here

xp

the man invented the remix, show some respect fer chrissakes

lol

I feel substantially older than lil yachty btw

the baconing of Michael Bolton is some bottom-tier kitsch barrel scraping imo. dude forever belongs as a punch line in an 80s Weird Al song.

speaking of:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bolton's_Big,_Sexy_Valentine's_Day_Special

i have to say, i went into it with my eyes already rolled, but after a rough first 10 minutes my eyes gradually rolled all the way back around to the normal position and i ended up watching the entire thing

the baconing of Michael Bolton is some bottom-tier kitsch barrel scraping imo. dude forever belongs as a punch line in an 80s Weird Al song.

― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, March 8, 2017 5:30 PM (fifty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ten years ago you could easily have said the same thing about Blink 182, Bruce Hornsby, Janet Jackson, George Benson, and Wilson Philips, all of whom have since been canonized thanks to millennial garage punkers, Bon Iver, poptimist critics, stoned balearic djs, and corny Haim people, respectively

sunrise, sunset bro

xp also I rep hard for Biggie but tbh that was a pretty compelling case, especially the comparisons to Scarface / Missy etc, both of whom have aged far better imo

I will rep for 60s George Benson tbh

Yeah of course, me too, he's flat-out amazing on records like Freddie Hubbard's Straight Life, to name just one I really love. I meant "Breezin'" era

yeah I can't go there

I mean maybe if a bunch of people yelled at me on the internet to TRY HARDER I... nah I still wouldn't do it

god can we threadban shakey here i need a safe space from these opinions

i never yelled, ill have you know.

I remember now how much you hate(d) diddy. makes sense his association w big would leave you cold. fair enough.

haha no worries yeah I was conflating yr requests w Matt's mock-yelling

Best way to understand Biggie is via stuff not on the two records: "Party and Bullshit," "Bust a Nut, "Who Shot Ya," the "Dolly My Baby" remix, the "Flava In Ya Ear" remix, the Funk Flex/2Pac freestyle, the final Wake Up Show freestyle, etc

i agree with adam and karl re: bolton, the worst kind of baconing is the "omg it's become self-aware" kind of baconing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP158nfO3jA

^^^

Equally applicable to the Americans thread on ILE

Best way to understand Biggie is via stuff not on the two records

Cool, guess i can stick w my "they all suck" position re: the records then

Not sure what I don't "understand" about Biggie tbh. I get why he's a big deal in the history of the genre, doesn't mean I have to enjoy his music.

also, you can't really "get" phish by listening to their albums or listening to live shows. you actually have to go to a show.

so you need to smell the audience

I'm just saying, the reasons you dislike the albums are mostly absent on those tracks and may be a better gateway.

Best way to understand Biggie is via stuff not on the two records

Cool, guess i can stick w my "they all suck" position re: the records then

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, March 8, 2017 9:44 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Whiney's wrong btw both the albums are stacked so UR STILL WRONG

en years ago you could easily have said the same thing about Blink 182, Bruce Hornsby, Janet Jackson, George Benson, and Wilson Philips, all of whom have since been canonized thanks to millennial garage punkers, Bon Iver, poptimist critics, stoned balearic djs, and corny Haim people, respectively

sunrise, sunset bro

― Wimmels, Wednesday, 8 March 2017 23:36 (

this is untrue of Janet Jackson and you know it

I don't remember the 6000-word AV Club piece arguing for the merits of Wilson Phillips either.

no way you can compare Janet Jackson to Michael Bolton, that's insane

cunt renaissance

NABISCO ON THE MONEY:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/09/magazine/25-songs-that-tell-us-where-music-is-going.html?smid=tw-nytmag&smtyp=cur&_r=0#/migos-bad-and-boujee

i didn't read all that yet. looks like some stuff worth reading though. i love that whole song playing while reading feature. it's like the future!

This is what we talk about now, the music-makers and the music-listeners both. Not the fine details of genre and style — everyone, allegedly, listens to everything now — but the networks of identity that float within them. Maybe decades ago you could aim your songs at a mass market, but music does not really have one of those anymore. Artists have to figure out whom they’re speaking to and where they’re speaking from. The rest of us do the same. For better or worse, it’s all identity now. ♦

^good shit