Michael Jackson: Classic or Dud?

I couldnt fill those shoes if i wanted to

haha ok nm

gr8 b8 m8, as they say.

I miss Alex in NYC.

MJ has always been a talented dud—no more, no less. The fact that critical institutions have canonized him in the wake of poptimism's Orwellian victory is a blight upon the musical landscape.

usually professionals will notify your relativs after you've been Baker Acted.

Omg

Seriously, though, I never got into the Killing Joke but I always enjoyed Alex in NYC's curmudgeonly contributions. At least he tried to uphold some basic standards, which is an infinitely more interesting approach than the "it's all subjective anyway except when it gets political in which case Anglo-American pop music rulez all lol" circlejerk that so much of musical discourse has devolved into in the past, say, 15 years.

From 2001:

For the music: Dud of course. Sorry gotta go with Alex here. Never liked him, but thanks to the zillion times you still hear the music everywhere it all becomes utterly meaningless.

For the social, aesthetic, philosophical, satirical implications of the Man, the Myth: classic.

― Omar, Tuesday, April 24, 2001 8:00 PM (fifteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Now here's a position I can actually respect, because it does what so few are still capable of nowadays: it dissociates the celebrity from his music.

The impression you are currently giving off is that you only respect opinions you agree with.

Now here's a position I can actually respect, because it does what so few are still capable of nowadays: it dissociates the celebrity from his music.

― pomenitul,

You are talking an awful lot of shit for someone who hasn't read what people have written about his music.

Liking MJ, much like liking Beyoncé, is no longer an 'opinion' in 2017. It's a requirement.

show us your draft card

You are talking an awful lot of shit for someone who hasn't read what people have written about his music.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, March 1, 2017 12:09 PM (forty seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There are better ways to waste one's time.

show us your draft card

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, March 1, 2017 12:10 PM (twelve seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

First off, I'm not American. Second off, assuming you're at all serious, thank you for exemplifying the attitude I'm denouncing here.

well, you step into a thread annoucing with the clarity of the addled that MJ is a talented dud and imply that admirers are bedazzled by his celebrity – I'm sorry your feet are hurt from getting stepped on

I quite like it when others prove my point, so please, no need to apologize.

this is like watching a tetherball match where one dude wraps the ball around the pole every time and the other guy curiously insists he's the winner

paedophile

I would think my opinions about MJ are well known around here but if not... he's got some good tunes up through Off the Wall, p much everything after that I have no interest in. I'm not impressed/engaged by his singing style, tics or mannerisms, the lyrical subject matter, the melodies, the production or really anything at all, and so much of it is over-exposed to the point that I actively never want to hear it again. Like Star Wars, over the course of my lifetime my reaction has progressed from infatuation to active loathing, due in no small part to the religious fervor surrounding his celebrity and the constant drumbeat of "YOU MUST LIKE THIS" from all corners. But setting that circus aside and focusing on the material itself, imo his discography is middling - some early on highs (ABC, I Want You Back, Dancing Machine, I Want to Rock With You, etc.) followed by a preponderance of ridiculous, silly and depressing lows, and it's maybe telling that the majority of stuff I do like all predates his assuming full control of his music; the quality of the input from collaborators like the Motown machine and Quincy Jones is undeniable, I have no reservations about attributing a lot of the things I like in MJ's music to people other than MJ. Generally I don't find his singing engaging, esp not as he got older and it primarily alternated between scat-exclamatory-nonsense and his paper-thin tenor. Post-QJ I don't care for his taste in drum and synth sounds at all, everything way too thin and glossy. And most of the time I don't care at all what he's singing about, about his trials and tribulations as a tortured man-boy fantasist just dgaf.

Οὖτις otm

http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt349/esmeralda84_2009/Gif%20Bad%20Video/25iais6.gif

probably mentioned upthread but John Jeremiah Sullivan's MJ essay is great
http://www.gq.com/story/michael-jackson-john-jeremiah-sullivan-tribute

Ok, for one thing

The fact that critical institutions have canonized him in the wake of poptimism's Orwellian victory

Lol no. Off the Wall and Thriller, at least, have been in the canon since well before I started reading music criticism in the mid-90s.

Of course taste and all but I guess someone who doesn't find any joy and pleasure in anything he did, at least, from "I want you back" to "lady in my Life" simply doesn't enjoy the same things in music as I do.

nobody has to like anything obv but the idea that anybody who likes...you know...music recorded in recording studios that isn't Estrus/In the Red style live-to-tape stuff...wouldn't find Thriller absolutely breathtaking strictly from an engineering standpoint...is pretty weird

it's a lot like Steely Dan or Fleetwood Mac. you ain't gotta like it, but if that doesn't sound amazing to you, I'm a little curious about your aesthetic priorities, because from a mixing standpoint alone, Thriller is a total masterpiece. the chord walkdown after the chorus of "Human Nature," sure that's fucking breathtaking and there's a reason jazz acts started covering it immediately as soon as the album hit the streets, but who knows, maybe Quincy Jones at the peak of his game isn't your thing. but the production on Thriller? gtfo w/any take other than "of course that's great"

love the demo recording of "Human Nature" by Steve Porcaro. imagining Quincy Jones listening to it for the first time and getting the lightbulb over his head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWdy5i_44sQ

the walkdown with the alternating major and minor 7ths is missing from the porcaro demo, which is kind of shocking, because for me & for people I've talked to about it that's the hallelujah moment, just so lush

Quincy Jones' whole crew were fusion guys, not just Toto but Louis Johnson, Ndugu Chancler, Greg Philliganes. That's one reason why Thriller plays like the pure-pop realization of Earth Wind & Fire's late 70s run. I doubt Maurice White ever got $800,000 and 10 months of studio time to make a record. He didn't have Bruce Swedien, either.

That's not to take away anything from those great EWF records or suggest they're anything less than fully realized, btw.

oh yeah but I totally hear you. EWF is one of my favorite bands of all time and their records are perfect, but Bruce Swedien breathes rare air. His work with Rufus, some of the best-sounding music anywhere ever. put that guy on an EWF record and something magic would happen, I don't doubt.

nobody has to like anything obv but the idea that anybody who likes...you know...music recorded in recording studios that isn't Estrus/In the Red style live-to-tape stuff...wouldn't find Thriller absolutely breathtaking strictly from an engineering standpoint...is pretty weird

Whatever Mr. I-Hate-The-Beach-Boys. I could say the same thing to you about Pet Sounds. We just prefer different emotionally crippled manchild schticks.

I am a massive fan of both the Beach Boys and Michael Jackson, for whatever it's worth.

And I don't begrudge anyone for their personal revulsion towards MJ given what we know or have reason to suspect about the man. But I also don't think it has fuck-all to do with the music itself. Lyrics are another matter, probably.

some people dont like slick music, big deal. beach boys / pet sounds is total Estrus style in-the-red production, come on now

e just prefer different...schticks

I think I've explained several times that there's something timbrally going on in the BB harmonies that has always, since childhood, made me feel physically ill, so no, this isn't about giving a fuck about any "narratives." it's just about sound. (I also don't like the songs the Beach Boys write, lyrically or musically, so I struggle to listen to the production afforded to the songs I don't like, lyrics I don't like, and the weird dog's-ear thing that happens when they do the soaring-sliding thing and I always feel like I'm going to vomit)

i appreciate the Beach Boys but i'm kinda the same way. and ugh i'm a giant Cubs fan but JCLC do you remember the song i believe the BB remade as a Cubs jingle? they'd play it on every WGN radio broadcast and it made me want to die.

Barbara Ann...I think that was the one they redid.

beach boys prolly diddled waayy more kids than MJ

And I don't begrudge anyone for their personal revulsion towards MJ given what we know or have reason to suspect about the man. But I also don't think it has fuck-all to do with the music itself

Would you say the same thing about Gary Glitter?

so I struggle to listen to the production afforded to the songs I don't like, lyrics I don't like, and the weird dog's-ear thing that happens when they do the soaring-sliding thing and I always feel like I'm going to vomit
)
cool, we reach. you *do* get why I don't care about post-OTW MJ after all (although swap out "soaring-sliding thing" for "bowchicka-ah-jamawnit-cha")

beach boys prolly diddled waayy more kids than MJ

this is a weird thing to say but I guess it hinges on how you define "kids"

lol at ppl pretending that not enjoying anything mj did after off the wall is somehow an iconoclastic opinion

or the fiction that liking beyoncé is now a requirement under the new authoritarian state of music criticism. i guess getting ppl like this is the inevitable side effect of having so many polls based on the 'acclaimedmusic' trashheap

#allgenresmatter

Please explain, dyl.

here's my rambling take on Michael in the disco era, looking his underrated (imo) work leading up to Thriller plus a peek at the pre-MTV music video "scene"

https://medium.com/@markcoleman57/dancing-with-michael-jackson-remembering-music-video-before-mtv-a0c18b063581"> https://medium.com/@markcoleman57/dancing-with-michael-jackson-remembering-music-video-before-mtv-a0c18b063581

Uhhhhhh...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e62M-5-7ajY

Classic.

On his worst single.

love it. your piece i mean.

was checking out xcape, the posthumous album, this apparently was adapted from an 83 demo of paul anka song, just beautiful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG08ukJPtR8