Hall of Fame Ballot 2017

if trevor hoffman had to get into the HOF on performance alone he'd get one or two votes on the ballot, he owes jerome holtzman's heirs like 50 million out of the 80 million he made in his career.

I do think Tim Salmon might be the one of the best players to never make an All Star team. Seems like he would have done it at least once. It's not like those early Angels clubs he was one were loaded or anything.

trout is wrecking the curve for fish-related-named ballplayers

i do think he was overshadowed a bit during his whole run with the Angels, there were a number of guys who emerged around the time he did (Snow, Edmonds, Anderson) who didn't exactly steal his thunder but didn't make him stand out either. then later Glaus and Erstad and (lol) Eckstein were around. still, it's pretty amazing he was never an AS. placed in some MVP voting and won rookie of the year and won a WS, though.

omar vizquel and his 11 gold gloves might cause some words to be exchanged over the next however many years

Vizquel probably would've drawn considerable support 20-25 years ago--pretty good comp for Luis Aparicio--but I don't think there's any way in the world he gets in now.

i don't think he'll make it, but he could be the next jack morris for a while.

I don't think arguments over the players who fall short will ever stop--everyone has a pet project--or arguments over A-before-B-but-after-C. What I was saying was that (Hoffman aside, who will likely be the last closer for a long while) arguments over the deservedness of inductees are going to all but disappear. As James says above in mookie's link, the quality of inductees now is stronger than at any time since the first few years, and I can't see that reversing course.

who will likely be the last closer for a long while

i can think of one other

probably should give hoffman a break, over his career his WAR is almost at the level of Pedro

(Astacio)

(xposts)

Oops--one other, duh. After him, I don't think the issue will come up again until at least 2032, when possibly you'll have Kimbrel and/or Chapman and/or Jansen. Unless the whole idea of a closer in the HOF is a non-starter by then.

i think the whole idea should be a non-starter now, i think closers are basically the https://38.media.tumblr.com/cfc78865c263aa2b61bdbdea149525e9/tumblr_inline_mxybtzhwSD1r4xj1z.gif of MLB

You'd at least make an exception for Mariano?

yeah i mean Mariano was I think on another level, far lower ERA than hoffman and double the WAR and all the postseason stuff. but i don't think he's "inner circle" or whatever, which is what his vote total will indicate.

how do we feel about andruw

despite his utter collapse at age 31, his numbers are almost there and he played some otherworldly defense

i think that unlike vizquel (to whom he is probably gonna be compared), andruw was a true superstar for a solid stretch of time

I think we got into this a couple years ago...Myself, Sandy Koufax excluded, a player who accumulated almost all his value before he was 30 should not be in the Hall of Fame.

i dunno,, i mean his ten season run from age 20-29 was pretty amazing. he averaged about 6 WAR at that time. i'm not totally sold on him but if he got in i'd be cool with it.

Clemenza, i somehow misread that as you saying you were in the BBHOF

he said "should" -- clemenza should be in the HOF

Believe me, I accumulated all my value before I was 17 at best--I've just been killing time since then.

I'll admit to a huge blind-spot with Jones: I'm not conversant with newer defensive metrics, and remain far more trusting of offensive numbers. To a certain extent, I'm still stuck on the eye-test when it comes to defense...I can confidently say Pillar's great, and I can be stubborn about saying Alomar was great, but with Jones, besides the awkward (again, for me--it doesn't bother everyone) shape of his career, I have to accept that 40% of his career value is tied up in defensive numbers that I find much more elusive than offensive or pitching stats. I'd rather see Jim Edmonds in there (they're close--Jones does a little better under JAWS).

he did hit 434 homers and stole 152 bases, so it's not like he was *only* defense

and yeah it was a time of many dingers, but he's ahead of both piazza and ripken. decent counting stats considering the shape of his career

i'd probably put Edmonds in ahead of Jones but i think both should be in there tbh. i don't anticipate either getting in unless there's some miracle via the vet committee.

I think Walker will get in one day, speaking of underrated OFers. i think the vets will put him in eventually.

FG on andruw

are we resigned to ortiz getting in without much debate? lower WAR than jim rice, who i figured he'd spend his candidacy being compared to before he went and had his best season since 07

Likely behind the paywall, but James's Andruw piece from three years ago:

http://www.billjamesonline.com/andruw/?AuthorId=3&pg=6&F_All=y

I have done the best I could to place Jones in the "right" position as a defensive player, and, as I said, I have confidence that my system is generally right on a certain level. But I can’t prove that those who would give more weight to his defense are absolutely wrong, just as I don’t believe that they can prove that they’re right. But based on my understanding of the record, Jones’ fielding

a) Was only truly outstanding through 2002; after that his Gold Gloves were mostly just reputation, and

b) Was not of substantial enough value that we should consider him an all-time great player.

I would put Andruw in a class with Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeno, Fred Lynn and perhaps a few others. Jimmy Wynn and Dale Murphy. These men, all center fielders, were all tremendous players when they were young--such tremendous players that they didn’t need to develop in order to become Hall of Famers; they merely needed to sustain their level of performance for a reasonably full career. But, for whatever reason, they weren’t able to do that, and fell short of a Hall of Fame standard.

I think he's revised his opinion a little upwards--he posted something yesterday that put Andruw as a B-level HOF'er, whereas Edmonds fell into the C category--but I'm not sure if he's in favor of induction yet.

For me, if you dominate your position for ten straight years then you have a strong HOF argument. So I think Edmonds has been underrated.

On one hand I agree with clem about Andruw Jones but OTOH the age think seems arbitrary. Roy Halladay also had ten great years and literally nothing else but most of us think he's a clear HOFer. However Jones got fat and arguably wasted his talent whereas Halladay got injured which was a kind of fluke and not his fault, should this matter? My gut feeling is that it should, but again I'm not sure.

age thing, not think

i have absolutely no problem with david ortiz going into the hall of fame

Hope Edgar gets there first, but I think Ortiz is automatic at this point.

Some cool pics of I-Rod visiting Puerto Rico today and tonight going around on the internet I saw on a baseball group on Facebook. He visited a children's hospital and then was a guest at the team he played winter ball back on.

Is there a chance for Scott Rolen to get in? or is he going to Edmondsed?

I think he's headed for a Tim Raines-like extended stay on the ballot, but because things are moving more and more in a sabermetric direction, he will get in towards the end of his 10 years.

he's gonna have trouble getting 5% though, isn't he? the ballot is still crowded