meanwhile nikki haley and ben carson are going to be in the next cabinet so yeah diversity in itself isn't enough
― goole, Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:35 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
but literally no one on the left would argue it is ...
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 20:47 (seven years ago) link
hes setting up a fake strawman democrat to fight against for no discernable reason
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 20:48 (seven years ago) link
I think the reason is that he believes that in order to win elections you need to offer something for everyone. The republicans convince whites that they have divergent interests with minorities. Sanders thinks the party needs to break through this by showing whites that progressive policies help them too, and do this without giving an inch on their antiracist, pro lgbt, feminist etc convictions
― Treeship, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 20:52 (seven years ago) link
ok ffs obv some ppl say prioritize one thing and some ppl say prioritize the other that's literally what the whole fucking argument is about + leftists who get more joy having the same argument over and over again than they do being in political power.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 20:53 (seven years ago) link
The point is there's a third way which is prioritize class in a way that doesn't set itself up as an enemy of identity politics, or doesn't see identity politics as an obstacle to your focus on class??
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 20:55 (seven years ago) link
this is about how he's framing the problem in a way that aggravates rather than soothes their compatibility
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 20:56 (seven years ago) link
Ben Carson accepts Department of Housing and Urban Development secretary nomination, spokesman says - WSJ https://t.co/kxbchvi3Gw
Wrong!
― Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:00 (seven years ago) link
Ben Carson, one week ago:Business manager and close friend Armstrong Williams said Carson won't join the incoming Trump administration and would only serve as an unofficial adviser...."Dr. Carson feels he has no government experience, he's never run a federal agency. The last thing he would want to do was take a position that could cripple the presidency."Ben Carson today, asked about his qualifications after being offered a position as Secretary of Housing and Urban Development:"I know that I grew up in the inner city," Carson said. "And have spent a lot of time there. And have dealt with a lot of patients from that area. And recognize that we cannot have a strong nation if we have weak inner cities. And we have to get beyond the promises and start really doing something."In other words, he has no qualifications at all. I suppose Trump finally found the one thing Carson wouldn't mind crippling.
Business manager and close friend Armstrong Williams said Carson won't join the incoming Trump administration and would only serve as an unofficial adviser...."Dr. Carson feels he has no government experience, he's never run a federal agency. The last thing he would want to do was take a position that could cripple the presidency."
Ben Carson today, asked about his qualifications after being offered a position as Secretary of Housing and Urban Development:
"I know that I grew up in the inner city," Carson said. "And have spent a lot of time there. And have dealt with a lot of patients from that area. And recognize that we cannot have a strong nation if we have weak inner cities. And we have to get beyond the promises and start really doing something."
In other words, he has no qualifications at all. I suppose Trump finally found the one thing Carson wouldn't mind crippling.
mindboggling
― Karl Malone, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:06 (seven years ago) link
Apparently there's a full-on Satanic Panic going on about Comet Ping Pong Pizza
― (rocketcat) (kingfish), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:15 (seven years ago) link
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/307404-jill-stein-to-file-for-recount-in-three-states
https://jillstein.nationbuilder.com/recount
so if jill stein asks for a recount is it just of the green party votes?
― 龜, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:35 (seven years ago) link
aren't economic and legal justice also essential to greater racial and social justice?
That's a terrific question. Why don't you go back in time to the 50s through the 70s and ask all the black and Latino men who were pushed aside by the labor unions that made a successful middle class possible? Or ask every minority ethnic group who was left out of the gains that occurred doing the boom of the 90s while still suffering all the shit of racism?
― and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:40 (seven years ago) link
ben carson is a total joke obv, but is in all likelihood not appreciably more incopentent than alphonso jackson, the sec'y gwb appointed to hud
― johnny crunch, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:41 (seven years ago) link
― (rocketcat) (kingfish), Wednesday, November 23, 2016 4:15 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
That's a pretty good article that makes it pretty clear it's *not* a legit satanic panic, just a full-blown harassment campaign. That jibes with my impressions - I've seen the stuff on the internet and it's pretty clear 99% of these people are trolls. Potentially both politically and homophobically motivated though -- the owner has some sort of connection to the Clintons and was once in a relationship with David Brock.
IDK, it seems like the law and law enforcement hasn't evolved to address this. I almost feel like you need a RICO-like deterrent but it's really difficult to figure out how to craft one that wouldn't rope in all kinds of relatively innocuous activity.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:43 (seven years ago) link
― and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Wednesday, November 23, 2016 4:40 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
So...your answer is yes?
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:44 (seven years ago) link
this is an amnesiac's answer
― nomar, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:46 (seven years ago) link
Let's ensure people of all races remain poor and desperate and without adequate access to basic resources like health care in order to punish dead white union leaders who practiced discrimination half a century ago.
― Treeship, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:48 (seven years ago) link
hoo boy
― 龜, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:48 (seven years ago) link
It will disproportionately hurt minorities anyway. The most inportant thing is to grandstand on their behalf.
― Treeship, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:49 (seven years ago) link
who are you arguing with
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:50 (seven years ago) link
Phil
― Treeship, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:52 (seven years ago) link
Actually you're being a moron who is inadvertently championing a "how can the Democratic party prioritize the needs of white people" argument
― ¶ (DJP), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:56 (seven years ago) link
"I know that I grew up in the inner city," Carson said. "And have spent a lot of time there. And have dealt with a lot of patients from that area. And recognize that we cannot have a strong nation if we have weak inner cities. And we have to get beyond the promises and start really doing something."― nomar, Wednesday, November 23, 2016 3:46 PM (twelve minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
"In closing, I know my name is Simon, and I like to do drawerings. God bless America"
― Crazy Eddie & Jesus the Kid (Raymond Cummings), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 21:59 (seven years ago) link
If Sanders had said, "let's move our focus away from criminal justice reform, let's play down our support of affirmative action, let's winkingly pander to xenophobia like the right, or let's downplay racial and gender inequality," i'd vehemently denounce his statements. He wasn't saying that. He was saying that Clinton's virtue signalling wasn't enough. She should have ran a campaign that focused more on how her policies would help the voters she was trying to get to vote for her.
― Treeship, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:05 (seven years ago) link
Treesh, buddy, you are misunderstanding my argument, which is that *prioritizing* the economic justice argument without also putting the social justice/minority rights arguments front and center tends to make all the gains accrue to white people.
― and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:07 (seven years ago) link
IOW, reread my last post
― ¶ (DJP), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:08 (seven years ago) link
So we're probably more in agreement than not. I think Sanders is being clumsy with his words, and I also thing Clinton did a lot more than virtue signalling, but nobody reported on it.
― and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:08 (seven years ago) link
Trump will pardon a turkey over Snowden i'd say, so there's that
― Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:09 (seven years ago) link
come around me with the phrase "virtue signalling" in your mouth and you're going to get pushed down some stairs
― goole, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:10 (seven years ago) link
If we were in an alternate ALTERNATE universe, 2016 would be the timeframe where the human race would throw up its collective hands and yell, "you know, fuck this shit, let's build a Multivac and let it handle all the leadership appointment decisions we're too fractured, divided, and distractions to make now."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multivac
― Crazy Eddie & Jesus the Kid (Raymond Cummings), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:15 (seven years ago) link
so should I donate to a Jill Stein recount or not?
― 龜, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:15 (seven years ago) link
Maybe that term has a right wing valence i forget. My point was that at the end her loudest campaign message was "trump is unacceptable." More than enough for me to happily vote for her and make sure all my family members got to the polls. Not enough to win this election. Maybe it was because that many voters truly were bigots -- i think this is possible -- but i think it was also because these swing state voters didn't understand what she was offering and how they could benefit. I don't think she focused "too much" on race or gender, i think she lacked focus overall and her message didn't break through. Tie policies to people's day to day lives imo, whenever possible.
― Treeship, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:18 (seven years ago) link
I didn't realize this before, mind you, and hindsight's 20/20. I just think democrats need to be serious and critical when they look at why so many voters preferred a serial liar, con artist and misogynist to them
― Treeship, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:25 (seven years ago) link
I thought that "virtue signaling" was a term that started off being used by left-wing activists and then migrated to the right, but apparently it was coined either by someone at the Spectator or LessWrong blog, so I guess not?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling#cite_note-Religious-4
though I'm sure that the first few times I encountered the phrase it was being used by social justice types as a synonym for "thirsty allies" or whatever
― soref, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:28 (seven years ago) link
Idk i apologize to secretary clinton for using it. Still think her campaign - which at the time i thought was slaying - needs to be ruthlessly analyzed. I feel sick that people like jeff sessions are going to the white house now
― Treeship, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:32 (seven years ago) link
i feel sick in general
― global tetrahedron, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:39 (seven years ago) link
so carson is going to gut the ability to fight redlining?
― 龜, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 22:54 (seven years ago) link
Good response to the bullshit coverage of the protests here in Portland:
https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/11/scenes-from-the-portland-protests.html
― (rocketcat) (kingfish), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 23:14 (seven years ago) link
― 龜, Wednesday, November 23, 2016 4:15 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I did.
That effort is accruing donations at an astonishing rate.
― Crazy Eddie & Jesus the Kid (Raymond Cummings), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 23:17 (seven years ago) link
people seem to think nikki haley will be eaten alive at the UN
― 龜, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 23:17 (seven years ago) link
how so?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 23:28 (seven years ago) link
https://twitter.com/BigMeanInternet/status/801470572614008832
lol
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 23:32 (seven years ago) link
UN not exactly at peak relevance right now
― the late great, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 23:45 (seven years ago) link
yeah... i mean UN generally doesn't seem like the kind of place where anyone is eating anyone alive but especially not the representative from the US probably no matter who it is
― Mordy, Thursday, 24 November 2016 00:02 (seven years ago) link
Even more amusing than Bookchin's shots at Bernie is liberal Twitter pretending they know who Murray Bookchin was.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Thursday, 24 November 2016 00:18 (seven years ago) link
If anyone else thinks we might already have touched on how difficult it is to combine class and identity politics, perhaps it might be of interest to see how the democratic party did this year. The party platform is here: https://www.demconvention.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Democratic-Party-Platform-7.21.16-no-lines.pdf But be warned, they can't even find common ground on finding common ground:
As Democrats, we respect differences of perspective and belief, and pledge to work together to move this country forward, even when we disagree. With this platform, we do not merely seek common ground—we strive to reach higher ground.
― Frederik B, Thursday, 24 November 2016 00:18 (seven years ago) link
That is to say, almost anything is more interesting to read than the same argument we've been having every night for the last two weeks...
― Frederik B, Thursday, 24 November 2016 00:19 (seven years ago) link
Fave twitter response is "omg Bookchin expressed my problems with Bernie when I was still a child," since the actual article is basically 'he's not a REAL socialist" and too business friendly.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Thursday, 24 November 2016 00:24 (seven years ago) link
on this race vs class thing I think the real question is 'is it still better to put such a public emphasis on race/gender/etc. issues even if it proves to be a strategy that loses elections outside of ca/ny?'
and 'we could find a way to make poor rural white people care' is just skirting the question. it's ~conceivable~ that poor white people just don't care about policy that doesn't benefit them. and they're the voting bloc that gets to pick our government.
― iatee, Thursday, 24 November 2016 00:26 (seven years ago) link
otm
― the late great, Thursday, 24 November 2016 00:28 (seven years ago) link
that said I think there's a decent chance that trump's white nationalist populist government is such an obvious failure that in 2 years technocrat democrats who talk about diversity a lot might seem more attractive to voters than any candidate who runs a trump-esque populist campaign. maybe. xp
― iatee, Thursday, 24 November 2016 00:30 (seven years ago) link