Mourning in America - Trump Year One: November '16 to

i don't know how many times i've heard over the past week some variation of "racism is just something to liberals bring up when they can't win an argument honestly". why even bother arguing about it if hearing about it just gives people an excuse to stop listening?

― the late great, Wednesday, November 16, 2016 7:56 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well even the left can't agree that it *is* racism & contra the ... implications of your point? which i don't think you believe. being able to observably identify things as "racist" is discursively valuable

i also just ... disagree. i have relatives in OH who work at Ford plants & are comfortably that middle-working class & they sometimes vote D & sometimes (more often) vote R but they are definitely racist. And in conversation with them, I'm not going to soft-pedal that I think their actions are racist, because I'm not sure what kind of purpose that evasion would serve. I see the evidence of it in the articles they share & the way they rationalize their votes; they don't *consider* themselves racist, but they do racist things. I am not sure how to address that while tip-toeing around the notion that they are being racist, and it feels fundamentally dishonest to pretend otherwise. This doesn't mean I just do drive-by facebook comments saying "You're just racist!!!" and uhh "consigning them to racism forever"—as much as its possible I'd like to engage them in some kind of constructive conversation bc if I don't let them know where I stand I feel like I'm letting them have a kind of power over me. They can agree to disagree but they're not going to be let off the hook

Like, they exist in bubbles where sharing these kinds of ideas is "OK" and "acceptable" & there should be some social cost, IMO, to sharing shit that is offensive to me, and that will include me saying, "I know you think it isn't, but what you just did is racist, and here's why." I don't see any other way out of that

honestly that seems like the best possible response

(& FWIW I think voting for Trump qualifies.)

include me saying, "I know you think it isn't, but what you just did is racist, and here's why."

sleeve otm. This is x100 better than your simply announcing that because of what they did they are racists and leaving it at that.

"and that's OK"

sleeve otm. This is x100 better than your simply announcing that because of what they did they are racists and leaving it at that.

― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 9:57 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OK but I wasn't talking about interpersonal strategies for addressing racism amongst persuadables, i was just stating the facts: voting for trump is racist, and we need to be able to say that. This was met w/ a bunch of "the liberals will never win pointing out that things are racist!" which is ridiculous

"Sorry your humanity is a negotiable virtue because we're more likely to win if we only talk about economics" is a shitty ideological position, IMHO, and makes the whole effort of "winning" kind of ... pointless

This was met w/ a bunch of "the liberals will never win pointing out that things are racist!" which is ridiculous

Uh. I'm pretty sure this was your reaction to the content, not the content. Putting it in quote marks when you are not actually quoting anyone on the thread kind of implies you are quoting yourself.

discursively valuable

not sure what this means ... not saying it's meaningless just that I am pretty dense and don't get what it means

"the liberals will never win pointing out that things are racist!" which is ridiculous

is it? i don't know about that. as you know, i work with children. one of the things i have learned from working with children is that children don't respond well to abstract concepts. for example, if a kid is talking when i am talking, and i want them to stop, i don't say "please stop, that is rude". because kids don't understand social niceties the way adults do. they don't understand rude (well, it's closer to the truth to say they have different standards for rude from 40 year. olds). instead i say "if you talk while i talk, you will miss what i am saying, and if you miss what i am saying, you will not understand how to do the assignment, and then you will get a bad grade, and your parents won't buy you the playstation you want for christmas, etc". they understand consequences better than they understand abstractions. i can only assume racists are the same way, in as much as they don't understand or respond to abstract concepts like "social justice"

I'm not going to soft-pedal that I think their actions are racist, because I'm not sure what kind of purpose that evasion would serve. I see the evidence of it in the articles they share & the way they rationalize their votes; they don't *consider* themselves racist, but they do racist things. I am not sure how to address that while tip-toeing around the notion that they are being racist, and it feels fundamentally dishonest to pretend otherwise.

i have super-racist relatives too, so i sympathize. i don't tell my racist relatives they are racist, because they don't respond to that. they get defensive and dismissive. serious qn: do your relatives respond thoughtfully to "what you just did is racist, and here's why"? does it work?

No they get super defensive, of course. Because they don't want to be racist. They think that's a bad thing to be.

Obviously it depends on the nature of the conversation: how we ease into the conversation, or if it starts in person or on facebook (sometimes easier on facebook), or who kicked off the topic. But it's still a useful rhetorical tool at a certain point: "That's a racist statement. This article is designed to dehumanize people." "Do you really think its cool to wish the death penalty on someone for punching someone else? [they answer] Does that not seem racist to you?" I mean these things can go a million different ways, it's not like im indiscriminately just saying "that's racist" like the GIF. But it still feels like a useful way of making a point: many times it just says "You wouldn't say this if this person was white."

we don't need to cure racism in each individual mind in order to defeat it as a political force. you just need to emphasize shared interests across race lines. make people hate the koch brothers so much they forget about minorities when they go into the voting booth.

i know that is crude. i think people should get yelled at for being racist as much as possible and the fact that the taboo against racism was shattered this year is one of the most horrifying developments i've seen in this country in my lifetime. however, the democrats are just not going to win by scolding people.

i think treeship and i are on the same page

i consider myself lucky to live in a tolerant state, but i don't think we are especially tolerant because the civics classes in our public schools are super great or because our college students are super woke or whatever. i think we are lucky to have a strong economy and its totally obvious to most people here that that economy depends in large part on immigrants, people on visas, etc. and that makes it easier for people not to be racist, because it's in their self-interest not to be.

i mean i honestly don't know much about the economy of the rust belt or the south or the bible belt, so i don't know if it's possible to convince people there that immigration and diversity will benefit them.

however, the democrats are just not going to win by scolding people.

― Treeship, Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:41 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Forget winning for now. There's a president-elect proposing brutally racist policies while in control of both houses. Getting people to recognize *that* racism seems to me a far greater priority than having them do some serious soul-searching atm about their own.

ok well i'm not pro ... scolding people (except people on ilx, obv)

i get what you're saying BUT if i had trump's ear (which i don't) i would probably advocate against a muslim registry (for example) by arguing that it will make muslims less likely to cooperate with the govt in counterterrorism efforts rather than arguing that it's an affront on human decency and fairness or whatever (which it certainly is!)

xp to lion in winter

make people hate the koch brothers so much they forget about minorities when they go into the voting booth.

― Treeship, Wednesday, November 16, 2016 10:36 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

not sure this works when a candidate actively churns up this level radioactivity, i mean half the country believes that inner cities are hell holes and that all muslims want to destroy them so....why would they buy that the koch brothers are a bigger threat? speaking of things that seem abstract

xp to the late great - it's not really his ear i'd want. a lot of his proposed policies -- mass deportation, daca repeal -- aren't actually popular with a majority of americans. i can't imagine sinking social security or medicare is either. i'd like to keep them that way.

deej otm throughout the thread

I don't know what causes racism but it's sure as hell not economics. way deeper than that. economics does not cure, or even paper over, racism. and economics is not a problem with a <<solution>>, where we just make The Good Economy and then all other problems melt away because that's of some base superstructure or somesuch stoner Marxist shit. the state economy itself will always be in contention, under socialism capitalism whatever; and as long as race is a salient dimension people will contest it along those lines, too. it's just wishing the problem away to say, let's just solve the economics

also I disagree with vahids economic reason for saying california is non-racist. I highly double Californians can all form a chain of arguments starting with "lots of immigrants and black people in my state" and ending with "more money in my pocket". maybe it's not civics class either but it's not that imo

*the state of the economy itself

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

dominant form of racism in trump's campaign was xenophobia/nationalism, which has been on the upswing across the world because 'economics' (/other disruptive aspects of globalization)

racism isn't something people just have when they're poor & forget when they prosper.

seriously sometimes ppl itt sound like musty elitist academics and i know you all are like, living out in the world, it's weird to read this thread

imo "california" is not a haven of enlightenment. don't get it twisted. your *city* might be. maybe your neighborhood. but drive a ways & there's plenty of folks who talk & think like that middle-america part people keep hammering about.

it's not OTHER PLACES. it's near you. closer than you think. no-one goes to those places except people who live there and then it's just decades of feedback loop. that's how "this" happens.

xpost to iatee: yeah but at the same time, trump's campaign and success is unthinkable without his career as the leader of the birther smear campaign. which i guess you can try and link back to xenophobia, and from there suggest a primarily economic-disruption root, but it wouldn't be my first explanation.

xp- i think my point is, there is always winners/losers in economics, whether the losers blame race or not seems like a separate question, and the winners are often just as racist as the losers

no-one goes to those places except people who live there and then it's just decades of feedback loop. that's how "this" happens.

― Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, November 17, 2016 12:54 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this hits hard

yeah nice post VG

Racism and prejudice have more motives than just being an economic loser and wanting to feel better about yourself. Some people just enjoy the thrill of power in dehumanizing and brutalizing others, and holding a position of superiority to that extreme degree. The current ideology in the US isn't really that far off from the ideology of the SS, so the Trump really shouldn't be a surprise here. I remember worrying something like this was going to happen even 6 years ago.

Over the past few years, what have we experienced here ... demonizing Muslims and Middle Easterners, demonizing the poor, condoning torture, wide-spread private prison labor drawn along racial lines, justifying brutality and a culture of violence, might makes right, etc. Open those doors, and out comes Trump and his boys.

The winners need racism: it's how they distract the losers, so the losers don't notice who is really robbing them and/or blame the little guy instead.

The winners in this game, in my experience, are people who have a lust for power and aren't really known for the existence of empathy in their personalities. In the past they used to shoot people on sight for demanding 14 hour work weeks instead of 16.

We have a lot of people who were given a raw deal in this economy. People who aren't guaranteed vacation time or benefits by federal law, people who aren't guaranteed affordable health care, people who aren't guaranteed much rights of anything that they enjoy everywhere else in the civilized world. Then you have the people totally screwed in this economy.

For the most part we've all been abandoned by the people running the show here, studies have shown we have 0% say in how things are governed, and a lot of people have gotten royally screwed over. We're also in a culture that's been stewing in demonizing the other/exploiting others as objects/worshiping the powerful, as an intentionally-constructed belief system that's been promoted on our main media outlets and by our two major political parties (Republicans more than Democrats, obviously, but Democrats aren't blameless here, either, because they get the checks from the same people).

And now we've got a neo-Nazi with the ear of the president-elect. Color me surprised.

i think i need to go back to detaching from ilx political threads for a minute. not a jab at any posters here, honest. just feel like i can't take another thousand or three thousand posts trying to suss out the relationship between race and class in america, like thank god this election came along so we can finally crack open this never-before-discussed question. that really sounds pettier than i mean it to because the conversation about such things around here is definitely like many leagues more nuanced and intelligent than i get in most other daily venues but it's really not helping me keep my head in the game or do anything useful. i mean i'm sure i'll still end up posting stuff anyway but it'll just be low-grade one-liners, i hereby swear not to contribute anything to the conversation or anybody's day.

as a swan song for the moment: to the guy looking for a "socially liberal, economically conservative party" type deal: first of all, if you are sincere in your posts, welcome to these threads, i don't think i've seen you around before and we always say we are interested in more of a dialogue with conservatives since the boards skew left. that said, i've been struggling to make sense of some of your posts tbh since they seem kinda detached from the reality i live in or reflect some baseline assumptions i just don't share, or maybe experiences of yours that i don't know about.

that might be a statement more about me than it is you, but my eyebrows do go up with some of your comments about health care (i think this was you) and also about immigration, where you invoke a narrative around 'americans' who are 'working and paying taxes' - - - - you do realize this this 100% describes immigrants, documented and undocumented alike? sorry, i should dig up the specific post, it was just this morning i think, but the thread flew by and i was on my phone and i couldn't really get into it. this is not a really great answer i know. i was at a rally/walk-out in the name of undocumented college students today, there were some really powerful and brave speakers taking the megaphone. i heard so much courage, so much determination and righteous indignation, and so much pain in the dehumanizing circumstances they've lived under for the majority of their lives. we really really have to unmake mental habits that divide the world up into populations that do or don't deserve our consideration, our recognition of them as being as human as we are. i don't think this is what you set out to post about, but to me, where i'm coming from, at least today, it is what you are posting about.

anyway on the 'economic conservative but not racist' tip i stand by my comments in this post here HIRALLY CLIMPS FOR PRESIDETN • US presidential elections part VII and in conclusion i would like to say i have been otm in this thread, except for the five hundred times i thought and acted as if trump had no chance of victory. very few of my jokes from the preceding months strike me as very funny now.

wanted to cosign re: vg's excellent post

i know you all are like, living out in the world

no, this is wrong, i am not

anyway on the 'economic conservative but not racist' tip i stand by my comments in this post here HIRALLY CLIMPS FOR PRESIDETN • US presidential elections part VII and in conclusion i would like to say i have been otm in this thread, except for the five hundred times i thought and acted as if trump had no chance of victory. very few of my jokes from the preceding months strike me as very funny now.

― dustalo springsteen (Doctor Casino), Thursday, November 17, 2016 12:54 AM (thirty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this was a good post

the linked one i mean. the post in this thread was alright though, too

This is being shared on facebook
"Mitch McConnell, KY senator (202)-244-2541or (502)-582-6304
Ben Sasse, NE senator (202)-224-4224 or (308)-233-3677
Jeff Flake, AZ senator 520-575-8633 or (602)-840-1891
John McCain, AZ senator (602)-952-2410 or (928)-445-0833 or (202)-224-2235
Lindsey Graham, SC senator (202)-224-5972 or (864)-250-1417
Susan Collins, ME senator (207)-622-8414 or (207) 780-3575
Rand Paul, KY senator (270)-782-8303 or (202)-224-4343
Pat Toomey, PA Senator (610) 434-1444 or (202) 224-4254
Paul Ryan 202-225-3031

just in case you need to vent."

So thought I'd pass it on

imo "california" is not a haven of enlightenment. don't get it twisted. your *city* might be. maybe your neighborhood. but drive a ways & there's plenty of folks who talk & think like that middle-america part people keep hammering about.

uh yeah, i'm pretty sure I posted upthread about growing up in one of "those" places. On the other hand, I looked up the election results in my home town, which was solidly republican for decades, and a significant majority voted for Clinton. Granted they voted to keep the death penalty and expedite executions like the town I knew and left. But I think the economy was a large reason for this shift from red to blue. I think either a lot of the middle-american people got gentrified out, or the population increase has been significantly more urbane liberal people who are willing to commute longer distances in exchange for bigger and cheaper houses.

(Doctor Casino) I've been posing here for more than a decade now, on and off. I think you misunderstood my posts. I have never been a republican, ever! Though I do agree with some of the core principles, same with the democrats. As time passes I find less and less to agree with republicans on but I still can't completely side with the democratic party. And I haven't said anything about immigrants. I mentioned what many of my co workers have said to me because they voted for trump. I've never posted on political threads before, because I usually don't like talking about politics.

a fairer economic system is not a cure for racism. however, it could help alleviate one particularly noxious form that racism has taken this campaign: scapegoating minorities.

There's been a lot of talk of bubbles. My bubble - which is to say, my inner-burb block of 20 houses and an apartment complex or so - features Jewish families, Indian immigrant families, Irish immigrant families, Spanish speakers, a gay couple, blue collar workers, academics, artists, professionals, the unemployed, stay at home parents, retirees, teachers, section 8 housing, families with kids in college, families with newborns, tiny 100 year old homes, bigger new construction homes ... and that's just my block, off the top of the head. If I am in a bubble, and what my bubble is missing is asshole Trump voters, then I think my bubble is doing ok and their bubble is the one that needs to burst. In fact, this election was partly a response against having their bubble burst. Oh, poor (middle class) white working class, it's not the 1950s anymore, what to do?

Has this been posted? https://twitter.com/williamjordann/status/798876695629545473

Jordan tries to take a look at polling, and changes in poll results, pre- and post-Comey Letter to see how much it contributed to what we saw.

I'm responding to got no reason not to hold them in contempt. we are talking about some deeply contemptible motherfuckers here, whose meaning I may've misinterpreted.

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

aight since i've been called dumb and self-righteous on this thread (not by al tho) i guess it's up to me to prove it.

when i look at trump voters, i don't think most of them are actively racist. i see people who care so little about values, have so little commitment to their personal beliefs, that they will without hesitation vote for a racist because, i don't know, "lesser evil" or "email server" or "he doesn't mean it" or whatever festering load of shit they've swallowed to justify their actions. i just don't see any way that i can ever trust or respect somebody like that.

i'll take any judgment people want to put on me. i don't care about the "optics", i'm not running for president, i'm not so much as running for dogcatcher, i'm probably not even a good person deep down. i'm not going to go out and confront trump voters on this to their face, but neither can i swallow the hurt, anger, betrayal, and hatred i feel towards what people who voted for trump have done.

The living embodiment of Poe's Law: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/11/17/facebook-fake-news-writer-i-think-donald-trump-is-in-the-white-house-because-of-me/?tid=sm_tw

I mean the guy is almost certainly overstating his effect on anything besides his own pocketbook, but $10,000 a month for propagating fake news to eager idiots is scary. My mother-in-law, my aunt, and several of my first and second cousins were among the people eating that stuff up. All of them Trump vogers.

Re: factors that won the election for Trump, concurrent with the Comey bullshit was someone on Trump's staff finally duct taping oven mitts to his hands for a week+. If he'd still been crowing on Twitter he probably would've sunk himself, but the American public's inability to remember anything saved the day.