Mourning in America - Trump Year One: November '16 to

If you're ok with voting for a racist you may be a racist /Jeff foxworthy voice

has this vox thing been here yet?

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/11/15/13595508/racism-trump-research-study

while i'm really, really unwilling to continue to give people a free pass on their shit, at the same time my approach is not to call people racist _to their face_. like, say you have a friend who is always talking about wanting to fuck fifteen year old girls. that person is completely, totally a pedophile, no matter how many times they tell you they're "just kidding, but seriously, look at how hot she is". but if you call them a "pedophile", and mean it, they'll get deeply offended.

completely unrelated, I took the morning off from work to help out with a student march organized by my daughter's school: https://twitter.com/MLNow/status/798949007254908929

Most of the Trump voters I work with and talk about the racist issue seem to feel that it's possible to be isolationist and not be a racist. They didn't vote for Clinton because they largely view the left's call for diversity as putting immigrants needs before the needs of americans. They don't think of this as racist because they have no problem with people who work and are a productive member's of society, as long as they pay the same taxes and keep their money here. Anyone who falls outside of this, "they deserve nothing from America." And they feel like Liberals fuel racism by always talking about it.

Who in here is saying these people are irredeemable?

while i'm really, really unwilling to continue to give people a free pass on their shit, at the same time my approach is not to call people racist _to their face_. like, say you have a friend who is always talking about wanting to fuck fifteen year old girls. that person is completely, totally a pedophile, no matter how many times they tell you they're "just kidding, but seriously, look at how hot she is". but if you call them a "pedophile", and mean it, they'll get deeply offended.

― xiphoid beetlebum (rushomancy), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 3:17 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

maybe it's his economic anxiety

That's rad, Shakey. :-) xp

they have no problem with people who work and are a productive member's of society, as long as they pay the same taxes

so not trump

the "economic anxiety" meme is really unfortunate because its purveyors know full well that the plebes who spread it won't really grasp the irony

If I'm talking to you guys (mostly leftist, aspiring non racist if not fully anti racist Hillary voters) then I think we should be comfortable saying that the trump voters were by and large a racist constituency.

One of the talking points used by conservatives is that, even if liberals speak semi-respectfully to voters who hold conservative views when seeking their votes, they privately hold those voters in utter contempt when they are talking among themselves. Because liberals are elitist pigs who will lie to your face about what they really think or want. Draw your own conclusion about whether your advice reinforces this caricature.

Apparantly, demonizing your opponent worked like wonders for the GOP. So I don't see the point in not doing it if it also happens to be true.

While that might feel good, how does it work as a strategy? Democrats already win 95% of the African-American vote and significant majorities of every other minority group. Can you squeak out an extra 2%? Does that change anything on the state level anywhere?

Being combative, yes - hammer Trump on ballooning deficits with no benefit to the people, hammer him when racist policies actually start getting made. Backing off from social progressivism? No, not at all.
Demonizing works because a large percentage of the vote that Republicans need to capture are primed for it, whether that's godless liberals or the homosexual lobby or whatever. Those people are a lost cause.

layers + layers of irony - k3v when u say "economic anxiety" you mean to deride ppl who make light of economic anxiety, right? and when deej uses it above he means it to make light of ppl who claim it's economic and not racist? xxp

I can't tell you the number of times I've heard "If I could cheat the system like Trump does I would."

One of the talking points used by conservatives is that, even if liberals speak semi-respectfully to voters who hold conservative views when seeking their votes, they privately hold those voters in utter contempt when they are talking among themselves. Because liberals are elitist pigs who will lie to your face about what they really think or want. Draw your own conclusion about whether your advice reinforces this caricature.

― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 3:23 PM (fifty-six seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Have you even thought about what you're arguing here? We shouldn't call racists racist because then the racists will think we look down on them?

A lot of that grievance came from white petit bourgeois people who still have money/jobs but also a feeling of status decline because inequality is widening for them too, but they don't blame it on business leaders who actually form a consensus on reforming employment terms etc (many of these people are also underemployed after the crash). They blame it on the people they see as a rung or two below them on the ladder, or they blame it on the other kind of middle-class person who is more liberal, better educated, or just that bit wealthier. But if you point out the corruption of the 1per cent, to them you're just jealous.

"Who in here is saying these people are irredeemable?

― Frederik B"

i didn't say "irredeemable", but last week i said that i can never trust or respect anybody who voted for trump again, and declared all my relatives who voted trump dead to me. i stand by that.

"One of the talking points used by conservatives is that, even if liberals speak semi-respectfully to voters who hold conservative views when seeking their votes, they privately hold those voters in utter contempt when they are talking among themselves. Because liberals are elitist pigs who will lie to your face about what they really think or want. Draw your own conclusion about whether your advice reinforces this caricature.

― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless)"

i got no reason not to hold them in contempt. we are talking about some deeply contemptible motherfuckers here.

That's rad, Shakey. :-) xp

thx - 600+ kids! it seemed well received by the neighborhood

D-40 and Aimless arguing ... popcorn .gif

nice that someone can enjoy it

Going away to talk shit about political opponents behind their backs is GOP 101, as well as basic human nature to some extent - so much projection here it hurts.

I can't tell you the number of times I've heard "If I could cheat the system like Trump does I would."

If you've got an issue w one of my posts feel free to address it, I don't think I'm being unclear or s thing

I think Trump voters make a difference between being a successful rich person and an elite. Elite's are overeducated and useless in their view, "they couldn't hang drywall." Someone who is rich has made the system work for them to arrive at the place many working class trump voters aspire to. Yes there are numerous holes in this logic.

the idea of Donald Trump hanging drywall is getting close to giving me a lethal giggle fit

i got no reason not to hold them in contempt. we are talking about some deeply contemptible motherfuckers here.

OK. If you accept that each and every vote for trump came from a deeply contemptible motherfucker, then I guess the only way to win future elections will be to mobilize more voters who agree with you, so they'll outnumber the mfs in swing states. That's fine. You realize Clinton just tried that. We might want to win back a few of the contemptible mfs who voted Obama in 2008 and 2012, just to be on the safe side.

Also, given the roughly 59,000,000 deeply contemptible mfs out there who voted for trump, I guess we are all going to live in a deeply contemptible society for the foreseeable. Seems to me changing that is going to take something other than twiddling thumbs until they all die. Or we could try that. Hasn't really worked well I the past.

I kinda feel that senate 2018 thread would be more constructive than rehashing this debate again...

I think Trump voters make a difference between being a successful rich person and an elite. Elite's are overeducated and useless in their view, "they couldn't hang drywall." Someone who is rich has made the system work for them to arrive at the place many working class trump voters aspire to. Yes there are numerous holes in this logic.

― JacobSanders, Wednesday, November 16, 2016 4:30 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark

hillary didn't do enough to emphasize that trump got his start with a million dollar "loan" from his father

we just need to find something for those contemptible motherfuckers to do. maybe we really do need to mine more coal. throw them in the pit!

okay, just venting...

OK. If you accept that each and every vote for trump came from a deeply contemptible motherfucker, then I guess the only way to win future elections will be to mobilize more voters who agree with you, so they'll outnumber the mfs in swing states. That's fine. You realize Clinton just tried that. We might want to win back a few of the contemptible mfs who voted Obama in 2008 and 2012, just to be on the safe side.

― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless)

fyi, i'm not responding to this atrocity by seeing if we can re-run the numbers and maybe win one more election before the next openly racist demagogue comes along. however, if you think we can build a stable anti-racist coalition on the backs of people who have clearly demonstrated themselves to have no principles, go for it.

Also, given the roughly 59,000,000 deeply contemptible mfs out there who voted for trump, I guess we are all going to live in a deeply contemptible society for the foreseeable. Seems to me changing that is going to take something other than twiddling thumbs until they all die. Or we could try that. Hasn't really worked well I the past.

― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 4:37 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think the discussion has to be about the best strategies to fight the implementation of Trump's stated agenda. That's where real lives are at stake.

I keep seeing this on my FB wall http://www.popsugar.com/news/Donald-Trump-Supporters-Racist-42705977 and wondering what the point is, trying to imagine a single Trump supporter who read it and was like, 'damn. That changes everything.' Also safety pins, I see a lot of people arguing about safety pins.

We have a while to go, but if Trump keeps dumping the press pool or shutting out the press entirely, I can easily imagine all those idle hands needing something to do diving in and doing the job that few of them seemed to do during the campaign. I just wonder how long they'll be content being evaded or lied to.

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/11/15/13595508/racism-trump-research-study

This is so very Vox-y and my gut reaction is not so kind to people like the woman who had a panic attack for being told she said racist shit... but it does line up with the things we know about urban populations and bigotry (harder to be one when you see people different from you on a regular basis).

Not sure about the path forward, though - are we supposed to send out teams of facilitators across the hinterlands? Pods of diverse people to colonize the red states? Just accept that it's going to happen eventually as people urbanize, with young people already our least racist cohort in history?

re: the media, kind of hard to say there wasn't enough information out there about his business practices, personal life, etc that they can start hitting now. - giving him so much attention was a problem but that will always be a problem with a capitalist media. They'll pay the most attention to whomever gets the declining number of daily paper readers and cable news watchers to tune in.

Not sure about the path forward, though - are we supposed to send out teams of facilitators across the hinterlands? Pods of diverse people to colonize the red states? Just accept that it's going to happen eventually as people urbanize, with young people already our least racist cohort in history?

― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 4:53 PM (forty-nine seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Obama and Holder's proposed legal challenges to gerrymandering are a start. In fact, a lot of legal challenges will be important: keeping federal funding for sanctuary cities, for example. Sending another Washington Post reporter to interview unhinged people in West Virginia probably won't do anyone any good.

disappointed but not surprised by mainstream Dems calls to put "country ahead of party" and not just use the Senate to block everything the GOP proposes. as if the GOP ever put country ahead of party. when your opponent has a machine gun, it's kind of stupid to stick with your pocketknife.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/306433-house-conservatives-press-mcconnell-to-get-rid-of-filibuster

no shit

like the Senate gives a fuck what the House tells it to do. I don't think McConnell will do it tbh.

OK. If you accept that each and every vote for trump came from a deeply contemptible motherfucker, then I guess the only way to win future elections will be to mobilize more voters who agree with you, so they'll outnumber the mfs in swing states. That's fine. You realize Clinton just tried that. We might want to win back a few of the contemptible mfs who voted Obama in 2008 and 2012, just to be on the safe side.

Also, giving up on racists who might vote for you means giving up on swing states where minorities and queer citizens live, and, no, I'm not ready for that leap.

David Cole (old prof of mine!), on "The Way to Stop Trump"

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/11/14/way-to-stop-trump-lessons-of-war-on-terror/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NYR%20Brain%20schools%20Trump&utm_content=NYR%20Brain%20schools%20Trump+CID_5a9edb3a4e7bd8d2015c58b250d54c5b&utm_source=Newsletter&utm_term=The%20Way%20to%20Stop%20Trump

Who in this thread said anything about "giving up" on anyone? Calling racism racism is not "giving up" or saying ppl are "irredeemable" or consigning them to being unreachable deplorable.

I'm responding to got no reason not to hold them in contempt. we are talking about some deeply contemptible motherfuckers here, whose meaning I may've misinterpreted.

"We have to lie about what happened or it might be mean to sensitive white people who voted for a racist and we'll never lure them into our trap"

I guess we shouldn't be surprised that a board w members arguing a Muslim shouldn't lead the party have about as little interest in being anti racist as the "deplorables" they oppose

I'm responding to got no reason not to hold them in contempt. we are talking about some deeply contemptible motherfuckers here, whose meaning I may've misinterpreted.

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 4:15 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh yeah that pov is dumb self righteousness I agree there

"We have to lie about what happened or it might be mean to sensitive white people who voted for a racist and we'll never lure them into our trap"

I guess we shouldn't be surprised that a board w members arguing a Muslim shouldn't lead the party have about as little interest in being anti racist as the "deplorables" they oppose

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 5:16 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Nobody has said that. I've said that referring to 50 million odd people as uniformly racist is both a back-patting strategy meant to absolve the speaker of their associations with Trump voters and a terrible idea politically if you actually want to build support in opposition to the blatantly racist aspects of Trump's platform.

Nor have I said that building support will necessarily work. But I'm hard-pressed to think up alternatives that go beyond dice-rolling in the courts.

I think whether or not we call them racist in messaging (fwiw I think there are effective ways to do this that will hemmorage support from the right, as well as ineffective ways) is a different question from whether or not they actually are racist, and it feels like the resistance to simply calling them racist has a lot to do w people's back patting ideology

Cf "I understand the working classes better than you"

I misused cf. I think I mean ie

They don't think of this as racist because they have no problem with people who work and are a productive member's of society,

yes. I forget which of the "real talk about rural whites" thinkpieces addressed this, but a lot of these Trump voters have this cognitive dissonance/split view of race and racism. The concept of "the good ones" is definitely present, but they make this distinction (I'm not defending it) between those we know, who live in places like we do, who have similar lifestyles as we do, and the ones who live in scary cities. The latter category is where the textbook racism really comes into play.

And also the idea of work and being productive is something that I feel tends to sway people towards Republicanism and conservatism. Like if you simplified the appeals of Bernie and Trump, on the Bernie side, a lot of people were stoked by the idea of getting things for free: education, health care, dismissal of student loan debt, whereas the Trump appeal was, I will give you something valuable to work for.

GOP, the party of officials who don't want to do their jobs

So Trump's going to continue to live in Trump Tower? That's fucking nuts, imagine the constant security detail