Mourning in America - Trump Year One: November '16 to

So many "radicals" argue so much moderate limp DLC style bullshit once anything touches outside of class conflict

goole otm

i need to get away from all you whitesplainers

see ya soon

ok see you in a few minutes xp

all of this can be true:

- a large chunk of trump's voters are openly racist or are on some level attracted to his race-baiting
- some of these people still voted for obama
- there were additional reasons people voted for trump beyond just race-baiting

--people didn't want to vote for clinton b/c sexism

Of course there are many factors that led to the democrats losing by a small margin in a small portion of swing states. ffs an Election Day butterfly wing flap may have caused hillary's loss for all we know. The question that should be argued here isn't the kinds of small fries micro constituencies that could have given the Democratic Party a slight edge but the kinds of things that give the GOP such a heavy bulwark against the left that even an incompetent narcissistic demagogue has a shot at the office. And in creating that possibility I think there is basically one major issue, represented in the polling: white racial grievance

Then of course there are the mechanisms by which white racial grievance was perpetuated (Facebook, media etc)

I just wish we could stop talking about "racist" as something you either are or you aren't.

Seems more valuable to think of "racist" as something you think, do, or say, rather than something you are. Most white Americans are not ideologically committed to white supremacy as a consistent political philosophy, but rather mix together a variety of ideas about race, including a number of racist ideas, like "minorities are unfairly stealing jobs from whites".

d40 otm

http://www.afropunk.com/profiles/blogs/i-told-y-all-white-people-don-t-give-a-fuck

I mean, there are deeply, explicitly racist aspects to Trump's presidency

all of this can be true:

- a large chunk of trump's voters are openly racist or are on some level attracted to his race-baiting
- some of these people still voted for obama
- there were additional reasons people voted for trump beyond just race-baiting

I think that's why it's so hard for me to see the efficacy of branding 50 million people as a racist block. Polling, for example, suggests that most people don't support the kind of deportations Trump is talking about. Attack the regime and the people that continue to advocate for its worst policies. Retrospectively telling all Trump they've already condemned themselves in your eyes is pointless, except in the sense of scoring (a largely true) ideological point.

The distinction that needs to be made (not necessarily here but when discussing these issues with the general populace) is between racism and, like, hate speech and KKK rallies and what have you. People rankle at the idea of being told that their words or actions are racist in part because they feel that they're being associated with the most extreme manifestations of racism, and they need to understand that racism can be as simple as making any kind of distinction between people on the basis of race and that it doesn't need to be OTT and virulent to have a negative impact.

i agree that racism played a major role in HRC's loss, and if racism didn't exist, she probably would have won. i also think racism does not exist or arise in a vacuum, and i'm not sure how simply laying the blame on racism takes steps toward solving this structural electoral problem we seem to have

Retrospectively telling all Trump (voters) they've already condemned themselves in your eyes is pointless, except in the sense of scoring (a largely true) ideological point.

Thank you

Retrospectively telling all Trump (voters) they've already condemned themselves in your eyes is pointless, except in the sense of scoring (a largely true) ideological point.

This is, IMO, a much easier argument to make if you are white or can pass.

I disagree that hammering on racism is counterproductive. Of course there are ways it can be; consigning a bunch of people as *unredeemable* racists is probably not winning many hearts and minds. But I think the cognitive dissonance among *people who don't consider themselves racist* and *votig for an openly racist candidate who wants to register muslims and break up immigrant families via deportation* is a HUGE huge opportunity to create a wedge in the right wing. Point out that he's a racist over and over! There's a reason so many conservatives are mad at Van Jones' statement that this was a "whitelash"--because even though they voted for a racist, they don't want to be associated with racism. Compare that with how many conservatives protest when some liberal clunkily suggests Donald trump isn't even a REAL billionaire or that he has small hands...imo we need to stop paying attention to what arguments resonate with liberals and start looking at which ones also piss of conservatives

i agree that racism played a major role in HRC's loss, and if racism didn't exist, she probably would have won. i also think racism does not exist or arise in a vacuum, and i'm not sure how simply laying the blame on racism takes steps toward solving this structural electoral problem we seem to have

― k3vin k., Wednesday, November 16, 2016 2:49 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

But k3v... the electoral problem is enabling racism not the other way around

If the GOP wins the argument that "actually some republicans aren't racist" in the public eye that's a huge whitewashing of what just occurred and a major loss for our ability to convey the degree to which trump is an extremist

consigning a bunch of people as *unredeemable* racists is probably not winning many hearts and minds.

this is what I was trying to say, ftr, DJP otm but maybe he disagrees with this as well for some other good reasons

agree with D-40 here as well

If racist is something people are instead of a specific type of idea and action, then the corollary is that in order to eliminate racism, it becomes necessary to eliminate those people. That kind of thinking either leads nowhere, or leads to a pogrom against those people, such as the one Trump is proposing against undocumented immigrants. This seems wrongheaded to me, even if, in one's anger at Trump's voters embrace of a pogrom, it seems justified.

The other thing is, that being honest about racism might be motivating to minority voters, which might lead to a higher turnout. Not everything should be catered to appeal to white voters.

Apparantly, demonizing your opponent worked like wonders for the GOP. So I don't see the point in not doing it if it also happens to be true.

xp Aimless, c'mon. How about option (b) people change?

imo we need to stop paying attention to what arguments resonate with liberals and start looking at which ones also piss of conservatives

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 3:55 PM (four minutes ago)

is there any evidence that arguments that "piss off conservatives" actually get them to change or moderate their views, as opposed to cause them to become further entrenched and increasingly motivated to vote for republicans? because the latter seems more likely to me

i definitely plead guilty to bubble thinking. lots of people were guilty of it during obama's presidency. wow, gay marriage and a black president and...oh shit half the country has been holding their breath for 8 years! and in my bubble world i didn't see it. because i don't listen to white-wing radio and i live in a magical world of progressive pot farming.

it felt like attitudes were changing all over. but i was wrong. i mean i have never trusted most of the country, but i guess i just wanted to believe...

In social media where so many of these wars are now waged there's an effect where people's opinions are shaped and they forget about their earlier actions because one persuasive person reshapes their way of thinking. It's an effect of peer pressure; a charismatic or persuasive person tells them this is the way things are, and they quietly agree and become soldiers for that POV. I don't think people who voted for trump are irredeemable but I do think they voted for a racist candidate which is a racist thing to do, and pointing out how it is racist can force them to either double down on it or reconsider who they want to be.

The other thing is, that being honest about racism might be motivating to minority voters, which might lead to a higher turnout. Not everything should be catered to appeal to white voters.

Apparantly, demonizing your opponent worked like wonders for the GOP. So I don't see the point in not doing it if it also happens to be true.

― Frederik B, Wednesday, November 16, 2016 4:01 PM (forty-six seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Because the presidency, house and senate are run by white people right now. I have a very good reason not to want to see half the electorate demonized. I work with an unusually sympathetic group of immigrants -- Dreamers -- and I'd rather people be given the space to say, nah, let's not destroy DACA and ruin hundreds of thousands of young lives. I need some subtlety, even if it doesn't really exist.

If it's a last gasp -- completely naive on my part, fine. But I'm sure that relentlessly describing people as 'irredeemable' won't end up doing my clients any favors.

is there any evidence that arguments that "piss off conservatives" actually get them to change or moderate their views, as opposed to cause them to become further entrenched and increasingly motivated to vote for republicans? because the latter seems more likely to me

― k3vin k., Wednesday, November 16, 2016 3:02 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It just seems like basic logic to me that they're afraid that in pointing out trump is a racist they will lose supporters who don't want to be seen as racist. I'm sure this applies to many many trump voters

xxxp one of my wife's coworkers (looks like her whole office full of medical professional white women voted for Trump except for her) quietly whispered "it's been EIGHT YEARS" when this issue came up last week

So I agree overall. Demonize the hell out of the regime. Make it look as bad as it is. But offer people a chance to for some reflection. Weren't they having Coco Rosie 'Kill Whitey' parties in Brooklyn ten years ago?

And getting people to change requires attacking the ideas that stand behind their racist thoughts, words or actions. Attacking the person elicits an immediate and strenuous defense. Explicitly dividing off the ideas from the person allows the person to listen instead of react. This way doesn't always work, but the first way almost never does.

If it's a last gasp -- completely naive on my part, fine. But I'm sure that relentlessly describing people as 'irredeemable' won't end up doing my clients any favors.

― soma's little yelpers (lion in winter), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 3:06 PM (twenty seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

who has actually said "irredeemable racist"? If you have to put that word in front of racist to make your argument maybe you're not actually in disagreement

i also live in a bubble, scott. montgomery county went for Hillary by 21 points and almost 100,000 votes. there are still tons of hillary/kaine signs still up throughout my neighborhood. as did most of the counties next to us - lehigh, bucks, chester, philadelphia (duh), delaware county, as did NJ, MD and NY. she still lost PA. i feel like pauline kael. xpz

Weren't they having Coco Rosie 'Kill Whitey' parties in Brooklyn ten years ago?

not a good example, see Coco Rosie thread

I don't think people who voted for trump are irredeemable but I do think they voted for a racist candidate which is a racist thing to do, and pointing out how it is racist can force them to either double down on it or reconsider who they want to be.

I agree with this totally, but most people consider themselves to be fairly fixed, so the difference between "that thing you did was racist" and "you're racist" is enormous in getting them to that consideration.

(I know, I know, this is Jay Smooth 101)

xp Aimless OTM

Based on my few conservative acquaintances on Facebook, I don't know that conservatives are concerned with being seen as racist. They just say "nuh-uh," point out that Obama promoted all of the racial divisiveness, and handwave it away.

Well who are we talking to? If I'm talking to you guys (mostly leftist, aspiring non racist if not fully anti racist Hillary voters) then I think we should be comfortable saying that the trump voters were by and large a racist constituency. Including those "persuadables." Because a vote for trump was imo driven mainly by white racial grievance. If we can't call a spade a spade then what's the point? Tip toe around it w talk of "economic anxiety" for fear of seeming like we think our racist uncle is "irredeemable"? Fuck that. It's one thing having a conversation with your racist uncle but let's be real about what happened here

If you're ok with voting for a racist you may be a racist /Jeff foxworthy voice

has this vox thing been here yet?

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/11/15/13595508/racism-trump-research-study

while i'm really, really unwilling to continue to give people a free pass on their shit, at the same time my approach is not to call people racist _to their face_. like, say you have a friend who is always talking about wanting to fuck fifteen year old girls. that person is completely, totally a pedophile, no matter how many times they tell you they're "just kidding, but seriously, look at how hot she is". but if you call them a "pedophile", and mean it, they'll get deeply offended.

completely unrelated, I took the morning off from work to help out with a student march organized by my daughter's school: https://twitter.com/MLNow/status/798949007254908929

Most of the Trump voters I work with and talk about the racist issue seem to feel that it's possible to be isolationist and not be a racist. They didn't vote for Clinton because they largely view the left's call for diversity as putting immigrants needs before the needs of americans. They don't think of this as racist because they have no problem with people who work and are a productive member's of society, as long as they pay the same taxes and keep their money here. Anyone who falls outside of this, "they deserve nothing from America." And they feel like Liberals fuel racism by always talking about it.

Who in here is saying these people are irredeemable?

while i'm really, really unwilling to continue to give people a free pass on their shit, at the same time my approach is not to call people racist _to their face_. like, say you have a friend who is always talking about wanting to fuck fifteen year old girls. that person is completely, totally a pedophile, no matter how many times they tell you they're "just kidding, but seriously, look at how hot she is". but if you call them a "pedophile", and mean it, they'll get deeply offended.

― xiphoid beetlebum (rushomancy), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 3:17 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

maybe it's his economic anxiety

That's rad, Shakey. :-) xp

they have no problem with people who work and are a productive member's of society, as long as they pay the same taxes

so not trump

the "economic anxiety" meme is really unfortunate because its purveyors know full well that the plebes who spread it won't really grasp the irony

If I'm talking to you guys (mostly leftist, aspiring non racist if not fully anti racist Hillary voters) then I think we should be comfortable saying that the trump voters were by and large a racist constituency.

One of the talking points used by conservatives is that, even if liberals speak semi-respectfully to voters who hold conservative views when seeking their votes, they privately hold those voters in utter contempt when they are talking among themselves. Because liberals are elitist pigs who will lie to your face about what they really think or want. Draw your own conclusion about whether your advice reinforces this caricature.

Apparantly, demonizing your opponent worked like wonders for the GOP. So I don't see the point in not doing it if it also happens to be true.

While that might feel good, how does it work as a strategy? Democrats already win 95% of the African-American vote and significant majorities of every other minority group. Can you squeak out an extra 2%? Does that change anything on the state level anywhere?

Being combative, yes - hammer Trump on ballooning deficits with no benefit to the people, hammer him when racist policies actually start getting made. Backing off from social progressivism? No, not at all.
Demonizing works because a large percentage of the vote that Republicans need to capture are primed for it, whether that's godless liberals or the homosexual lobby or whatever. Those people are a lost cause.

layers + layers of irony - k3v when u say "economic anxiety" you mean to deride ppl who make light of economic anxiety, right? and when deej uses it above he means it to make light of ppl who claim it's economic and not racist? xxp

I can't tell you the number of times I've heard "If I could cheat the system like Trump does I would."

One of the talking points used by conservatives is that, even if liberals speak semi-respectfully to voters who hold conservative views when seeking their votes, they privately hold those voters in utter contempt when they are talking among themselves. Because liberals are elitist pigs who will lie to your face about what they really think or want. Draw your own conclusion about whether your advice reinforces this caricature.

― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 3:23 PM (fifty-six seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Have you even thought about what you're arguing here? We shouldn't call racists racist because then the racists will think we look down on them?