Mourning in America - Trump Year One: November '16 to

xpost (NB: Muncie and the surrounding area is sadly one of the few areas where you can have some faith in my knowledge and expertise.)

Lol wow another article arguing it wasn't about race because some people voted for Obama

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:49 AM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

16% swing of poor whites from dem to republican when a white woman is the candidate rather than a black man, as well as trump performing better with latinos than romney. if your analysis is simply "because racism" then it's beyond overly-simplistic.

anyway I mostly agree w/ mordy's sentiment but also think that most people don't know who the DNC chair is anyway so it probably won't matter

― iatee, Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:32 PM (one hour ago)

yeah this, people don't vote based on who the chairs of the parties are. michael steele being the RNC chairman didn't siphon any of the black vote from the dems. ellison is a reliable liberal who has held various leadership positions in the party (currently chairs the progressive caucus and iirc sits on a couple of committees) and seems well-qualified for the job. being a black muslim probably doesn't matter but is a nice bonus imo

It's probably worth remembering that no amount of hate from liberals seems to have stopped the GOP from picking anyone for anything lately, and now they control our government.

why do you think HOOS and other leftists stopped posting here?

Because they got sick of your empty-headed, one-note bullshit?

There was a useful distinction made in a Harvard Business Review essay:

The terminology here can be confusing. When progressives talk about the working class, typically they mean the poor. But the poor, in the bottom 30% of American families, are very different from Americans who are literally in the middle: the middle 50% of families whose median income was $64,000 in 2008. That is the true “middle class,” and they call themselves either “middle class” or “working class.”

Hence the relatively high income of Trump supporters, compared to blacks or Latinos, who I guess get broadly categorized as "the poor." Are the white working class more economically disenfranchised than the black working class, or the Latino working class? Of course not. Their problems of disenfranchisement, economic or otherwise, greatly supersede those of the "white working class," for dozens of obvious reasons. But the white working class, understandably but selfishly, doesn't see it that way, and lashed out.

https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class?utm_campaign=HBR&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social

the fact that "Trump’s victory cannot be explained by racism alone" is apparently a controversial statement on the center-left is pretty harrowing considering we're supposed to be the side of nuance and complex explanations

white libs just looking to impress with their 200% wokeness.

ahhh, the many notes of van Gorp.

How about Ellison's two opponents for DNC chairman being lobbyist whores? good nuff?

Of course it's not racism alone. Comey also played a role.

;)

But a 16% swing among poor whites when the candidate is a white supremacist instead of a mealy mouthed mormon? Racism sounds like a good explanation.

I just wish we could stop talking about "racist" as something you either are or you aren't. This idea that whites are being victimized (yet again!) because us whiney liberals are calling all Trump voters "racist" is getting us nowhere.

DeBlasio basically telling President Trump to get tae fuck:

In the coming days, the mayor said, his administration will address questions about whether federal officials enforcing a heightened Trump deportation effort will be given access to the city’s IDNYC database, a municipal ID program designed for people with limited documentation. Nearly half a million New Yorkers are undocumented immigrants, and many have participated in the program. In the wake of Trump’s election, de Blasio is reportedly considering eliminating the program and destroying the database of New Yorkers’ personal information, rather than being forced to turn that information over to federal law enforcement or immigration authorities.

De Blasio also addressed questions about the logistical issues presented by housing a president elect in midtown Manhattan, saying that NYPD Commissioner James O’Neill would be meeting with the Secret Service this week to find a less disruptive solution. (Several cross-streets around Trump Tower and lanes on the adjacent avenues have been closed.)

Some of the high-end retailers have been complaining about a drop in foot traffic since last Tuesday, even as they enjoy the added security of NYPD in riot gear and Secret Service. “I will not tell you that Gucci and Tiffany’s are my central concerns in life,” the mayor said. “But I will say the traffic situation is a very real problem.”

Of course it's not racism alone. Comey also played a role.

― Frederik B, Wednesday, November 16, 2016 12:15 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

how could the dems have predicted that the candidate under investigation by the fbi would be investigated by the fbi?

But a 16% swing among poor whites when the candidate is a white supremacist instead of a mealy mouthed mormon? Racism sounds like a good explanation.

― Frederik B, Wednesday, November 16, 2016 12:16 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

basically nonsensical to act like the repubs 4 years ago were not a racist, white supremacist party but are now. trump is more vulgar and crass with it, but it's all the same shite, just a different pile

But a 16% swing among poor whites when the candidate is a white supremacist instead of a mealy mouthed mormon? Racism sounds like a good explanation.

― Frederik B, Wednesday, November 16, 2016 2:16 PM (forty-six seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

even i don't think this is an easy enough explanation

a whole lot of people in this country are racist. it's not localized to the poor; i don't even think it's more prevalent among the poor. the internet fascists seem pretty well fed frankly.

a whole lot of obama's share of the WWC just stayed home. they were persuadable but hillary didn't get them out the door.

the "47%" tape hurt romney pretty badly. he sounded like (and was) a stiff jackass boss. trump made a lot of promises to working people; his promise was to be a corrupt rich asshole on their behalf.

DJP said it best last week: racists voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012 because they were hurting and thought he had the answers.

Now the right candidate with the right dog whistle ran for president.

This conversation reminds me of the argument b/w a cousin and me who said Strom Thurmond wasn't a racist because he was one of the first congressman to hire a black legislative aide.

how could the dems have predicted that the candidate under investigation by the fbi would be investigated by the fbi?

c'mon the way this played out was shitty and massively unfair to the Dems

But a 16% swing among poor whites when the candidate is a white supremacist instead of a mealy mouthed mormon? Racism sounds like a good explanation.

Does it 'sound good' because it makes you feel better, or because it's simple enough that you don't have to tax your brain figuring out that people vote for numerous (even self-contradictory) reasons, one of which has traditionally been a desire to place faith in leaders who position themselves as saviors?

I have no doubt that many Trump voters support policies at a macro level (deportation of immigrants; increased 'law and order' measures) that are racist, and also see themselves, in their day-to-day lives as NOT racist.

I think one of the reasons beating the 'you're racist, all of you' drum is shortsighted is because I'll die if I have to read another post mortem and also because when you tell someone that, they think 'I don't hate my Latino neighbor' not 'I'm contributing to the systemic marginalization of my Latino neighbor through my vote.'

The alt-right, otoh, should die painfully.

"Ugh, I really need to not do get drawn into US history and research Kitty Genovese instead.

― Frederik B"

people didn't actually ignore her cries for help, they just didn't hear them.

"so that political positions thing on his wiki literally has nothing to say about his economic positions. i don't think dems need to abandon the identity politics stuff entirely but it seems crazy that in light of this election they're going to move forward on someone who doesn't have economic stuff as the center of their political ideology.

― Mordy"

america just elected a president who has been literally making every single thing he said up as he was going along. i don't think we need to set the bar too high for a fucking dnc chair.

"enjoy Chuck Schumer, he's perfect for you. why do you think HOOS and other leftists stopped posting here?

― Supercreditor (Dr Morbius)"

morbz, much love, but on the list of withering put-downs, "_You're_ the reason certain leftists have stopped posting here!" is not one of your all-time greatest hits.

basically nonsensical to act like the repubs 4 years ago were not a racist, white supremacist party but are now. trump is more vulgar and crass with it, but it's all the same shite, just a different pile

― harold melvin and the bluetones (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 2:25 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Bullshit. His entire campaign was launched alleging our first black president was a Muslim and that we needed to build a wall to keep out Mexicans. He made explicit racist appeals from day -500 of his campaign. He explicitly stoked white supremacist feelings in voters, and yes lots of white people have feelings of racism who also are ok with voting for a black man for president. That's how racism works

And fuck morbius I'm making an ideological argument here this isn't trying to seem more "woke". But considering you're the one suggesting an article can't be wrong because of the race of its author maybe you should think a little more about that sort of thing

So many "radicals" argue so much moderate limp DLC style bullshit once anything touches outside of class conflict

goole otm

i need to get away from all you whitesplainers

see ya soon

ok see you in a few minutes xp

all of this can be true:

- a large chunk of trump's voters are openly racist or are on some level attracted to his race-baiting
- some of these people still voted for obama
- there were additional reasons people voted for trump beyond just race-baiting

--people didn't want to vote for clinton b/c sexism

Of course there are many factors that led to the democrats losing by a small margin in a small portion of swing states. ffs an Election Day butterfly wing flap may have caused hillary's loss for all we know. The question that should be argued here isn't the kinds of small fries micro constituencies that could have given the Democratic Party a slight edge but the kinds of things that give the GOP such a heavy bulwark against the left that even an incompetent narcissistic demagogue has a shot at the office. And in creating that possibility I think there is basically one major issue, represented in the polling: white racial grievance

Then of course there are the mechanisms by which white racial grievance was perpetuated (Facebook, media etc)

I just wish we could stop talking about "racist" as something you either are or you aren't.

Seems more valuable to think of "racist" as something you think, do, or say, rather than something you are. Most white Americans are not ideologically committed to white supremacy as a consistent political philosophy, but rather mix together a variety of ideas about race, including a number of racist ideas, like "minorities are unfairly stealing jobs from whites".

d40 otm

http://www.afropunk.com/profiles/blogs/i-told-y-all-white-people-don-t-give-a-fuck

I mean, there are deeply, explicitly racist aspects to Trump's presidency

all of this can be true:

- a large chunk of trump's voters are openly racist or are on some level attracted to his race-baiting
- some of these people still voted for obama
- there were additional reasons people voted for trump beyond just race-baiting

I think that's why it's so hard for me to see the efficacy of branding 50 million people as a racist block. Polling, for example, suggests that most people don't support the kind of deportations Trump is talking about. Attack the regime and the people that continue to advocate for its worst policies. Retrospectively telling all Trump they've already condemned themselves in your eyes is pointless, except in the sense of scoring (a largely true) ideological point.

The distinction that needs to be made (not necessarily here but when discussing these issues with the general populace) is between racism and, like, hate speech and KKK rallies and what have you. People rankle at the idea of being told that their words or actions are racist in part because they feel that they're being associated with the most extreme manifestations of racism, and they need to understand that racism can be as simple as making any kind of distinction between people on the basis of race and that it doesn't need to be OTT and virulent to have a negative impact.

i agree that racism played a major role in HRC's loss, and if racism didn't exist, she probably would have won. i also think racism does not exist or arise in a vacuum, and i'm not sure how simply laying the blame on racism takes steps toward solving this structural electoral problem we seem to have

Retrospectively telling all Trump (voters) they've already condemned themselves in your eyes is pointless, except in the sense of scoring (a largely true) ideological point.

Thank you

Retrospectively telling all Trump (voters) they've already condemned themselves in your eyes is pointless, except in the sense of scoring (a largely true) ideological point.

This is, IMO, a much easier argument to make if you are white or can pass.

I disagree that hammering on racism is counterproductive. Of course there are ways it can be; consigning a bunch of people as *unredeemable* racists is probably not winning many hearts and minds. But I think the cognitive dissonance among *people who don't consider themselves racist* and *votig for an openly racist candidate who wants to register muslims and break up immigrant families via deportation* is a HUGE huge opportunity to create a wedge in the right wing. Point out that he's a racist over and over! There's a reason so many conservatives are mad at Van Jones' statement that this was a "whitelash"--because even though they voted for a racist, they don't want to be associated with racism. Compare that with how many conservatives protest when some liberal clunkily suggests Donald trump isn't even a REAL billionaire or that he has small hands...imo we need to stop paying attention to what arguments resonate with liberals and start looking at which ones also piss of conservatives

i agree that racism played a major role in HRC's loss, and if racism didn't exist, she probably would have won. i also think racism does not exist or arise in a vacuum, and i'm not sure how simply laying the blame on racism takes steps toward solving this structural electoral problem we seem to have

― k3vin k., Wednesday, November 16, 2016 2:49 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

But k3v... the electoral problem is enabling racism not the other way around

If the GOP wins the argument that "actually some republicans aren't racist" in the public eye that's a huge whitewashing of what just occurred and a major loss for our ability to convey the degree to which trump is an extremist

consigning a bunch of people as *unredeemable* racists is probably not winning many hearts and minds.

this is what I was trying to say, ftr, DJP otm but maybe he disagrees with this as well for some other good reasons

agree with D-40 here as well

If racist is something people are instead of a specific type of idea and action, then the corollary is that in order to eliminate racism, it becomes necessary to eliminate those people. That kind of thinking either leads nowhere, or leads to a pogrom against those people, such as the one Trump is proposing against undocumented immigrants. This seems wrongheaded to me, even if, in one's anger at Trump's voters embrace of a pogrom, it seems justified.

The other thing is, that being honest about racism might be motivating to minority voters, which might lead to a higher turnout. Not everything should be catered to appeal to white voters.

Apparantly, demonizing your opponent worked like wonders for the GOP. So I don't see the point in not doing it if it also happens to be true.

xp Aimless, c'mon. How about option (b) people change?

imo we need to stop paying attention to what arguments resonate with liberals and start looking at which ones also piss of conservatives

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Wednesday, November 16, 2016 3:55 PM (four minutes ago)

is there any evidence that arguments that "piss off conservatives" actually get them to change or moderate their views, as opposed to cause them to become further entrenched and increasingly motivated to vote for republicans? because the latter seems more likely to me

i definitely plead guilty to bubble thinking. lots of people were guilty of it during obama's presidency. wow, gay marriage and a black president and...oh shit half the country has been holding their breath for 8 years! and in my bubble world i didn't see it. because i don't listen to white-wing radio and i live in a magical world of progressive pot farming.

it felt like attitudes were changing all over. but i was wrong. i mean i have never trusted most of the country, but i guess i just wanted to believe...

In social media where so many of these wars are now waged there's an effect where people's opinions are shaped and they forget about their earlier actions because one persuasive person reshapes their way of thinking. It's an effect of peer pressure; a charismatic or persuasive person tells them this is the way things are, and they quietly agree and become soldiers for that POV. I don't think people who voted for trump are irredeemable but I do think they voted for a racist candidate which is a racist thing to do, and pointing out how it is racist can force them to either double down on it or reconsider who they want to be.

The other thing is, that being honest about racism might be motivating to minority voters, which might lead to a higher turnout. Not everything should be catered to appeal to white voters.

Apparantly, demonizing your opponent worked like wonders for the GOP. So I don't see the point in not doing it if it also happens to be true.

― Frederik B, Wednesday, November 16, 2016 4:01 PM (forty-six seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Because the presidency, house and senate are run by white people right now. I have a very good reason not to want to see half the electorate demonized. I work with an unusually sympathetic group of immigrants -- Dreamers -- and I'd rather people be given the space to say, nah, let's not destroy DACA and ruin hundreds of thousands of young lives. I need some subtlety, even if it doesn't really exist.

If it's a last gasp -- completely naive on my part, fine. But I'm sure that relentlessly describing people as 'irredeemable' won't end up doing my clients any favors.

is there any evidence that arguments that "piss off conservatives" actually get them to change or moderate their views, as opposed to cause them to become further entrenched and increasingly motivated to vote for republicans? because the latter seems more likely to me

― k3vin k., Wednesday, November 16, 2016 3:02 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It just seems like basic logic to me that they're afraid that in pointing out trump is a racist they will lose supporters who don't want to be seen as racist. I'm sure this applies to many many trump voters

xxxp one of my wife's coworkers (looks like her whole office full of medical professional white women voted for Trump except for her) quietly whispered "it's been EIGHT YEARS" when this issue came up last week