Is this anti-semitism?

friends on fb are comparing his views on Zionism/Israel to those of Eichmann

afaik bannon has never sought to export all american jews to israel, tho that is a not unknown opinion on the far white supremacist right. i think anyway the comparison belies a categorical confusion bc i'm assuming it comes from the rabidly pro-Likud (and Israeli right) line of Briebart. but i see that as being more about Israel as a religious outpost of Western culture on the front lines of the war against Islam - not as a pragmatic solution to how to get rid of your Jews.

i'm just assuming that was the comparison and not that bannon is in the middle of designing an industrial genocide state

Bannon is definitely designing a state to destroy its "internal enemies" whoever he may perceive them to be. You can count on that.

if you're going to go for nazi comparisons doesn't goebbels make a lot more sense?

goebbels didn't get a chance to testify to expand on his views on Zionism

https://twitter.com/ZaidJilani/status/798639101410824192

Alan Dershowitz on MSNBC right now says evidence bannon is antisemite is not there, then says Hamas would cheer if Ellison made DNC chief

i don't know if it's encouraging or depressing that a circumstantial charge antisemitism might bring bannon down but plenty of evidence he's a total pig to everyone else has no valence at all

Like Trump, he courts antisemitism to boost his power, so it almost doesn't matter if he is one.

otm. it doesn't matter what he "truly" believes when he runs a white suprematist website.

shitbag cunning prizes plausible deniability

fwiw i don't think this is how an anti-semite talks or conceptualizes Judaism or Jewishness:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/lesterfeder/this-is-how-steve-bannon-sees-the-entire-world?utm_term=.jjb1ZYaGW#.jfEKjVbQl

There's been an exchange of articles and letters in the morning star (yeah, yeah, I know) about anti semitism in the Soviet Union. Wasn't sure if anyone saw it - I'm at the pub so I can't check if it's in their site. I have today's if anyone is interested. I was happy that the letter I read was saying that it's absurd to insist anti-semitism didn't exist in the ussr - but then I notice the letter above it claiming that Stalin never entertained an anti-Semitic thought, and neither did any official soviet actions.

obv an insane claim even if jews weren't his target early on they become one later, esp in the immediate post-trotsky era when he was cleaning house. from the kotkin:

Orjonikidize engaged in negotiations over the disposition of the highest-profile Trotskyites who sought to continue working in some capacity, but Stalin soon scattered them into internal exile.303 Whereas in the politburo back in mid-1924, Great Russians accounted for 46 percent, with a third having been Jews and the remaining three a Pole, Latvian, and Georgian, now the politburo became two-thirds Russian (and would retain a Russian majority thereafter).304 The talk around the congress was that “Moses had taken the Jews out of Egypt, and Stalin took them out of the Central Committee.”305

and then infamously right before his death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors'_plot

of note - my great aunt for whom my youngest daughter is named used to smuggle siddurim and jewish ritual items into the USSR for Chabad since those items were otherwise banned. and of course religion of any kind was heavily cracked down upon, but particularly among chassidim whose practice didn't allow for much hiding. the previous rebbe of lubavitch in particular was targeted hard by the Yevsektsiya (this was primarily communist jews oppressing religious jews) and he wrote about it in a really amazing work that has been translated into english and can be read - it looks like in full - here: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2994/jewish/The-Rebbes-Prison-Diary.htm

Nachmanson laughed sardonically, with a mixture of pleasure and vengeance. I saw then that I was dealing with a totally different person. This was not the Nachmanson who was in my apartment, nor the man in the courtyard. This was a G.P.U. official, whose primary task was to frighten the prisoners, to confuse them and render them submissive -- ultimately to extract confessions and admissions about imaginary events.

At that moment I recollected the text in Reishit Chachmah at the beginning of the Tractate Geihinom: "It is written, 'Who can stand before His anger? And who can be upright before the fierceness of His wrath?' Rav Zeira commented, citing the verse from Proverbs, 'The leech has two daughters who cry out, Give, give.' Rabbi Elazar commented further, 'Two groups of angels stand at the gates of Geihinom and cry, Give, give, bring, bring.'"

We advanced a few more steps. Nachmanson opened the door to the corridor of the administrative division. He whistled, signalling to one of the guards, "Take this citizen," he ordered, handed him a paper, and said, "Here are his documents. Escort him to the administrative office and give this to official X."

He turned to me laughing, "Now you will begin to understand where you are." Even before he had finished the sentence, he hastened to descend and run after Lulav, who had already gone down. They were obviously in haste to accomplish important tasks. Apparently their night's work was still incomplete.

The guard lead me and indicated with his finger that I should walk the length of the corridor to the wide open door. He told me that I would then be given a questionnaire by one of the secretaries and that I should answer all the questions in writing.

This corridor was a long room, more than 150 feet long and twelve feet wide. On both sides there were many closed office doors, and at every 30 feet was a small burning candle suspended from the ceiling. Along the length of the room stood ten or twelve armed guards, each armed with a Cossack pike at his back, a polished sword in his left hand, and a rifle in his right. They stood like marble pillars, unmoving, yet their eyes attentively surveyed the entire area.

The dreadful, bizarre scene would inevitably frighten any normal person, who could not begin to comprehend the reason for the elaborate display of weaponry and the intended targets of these instruments of destruction. Indeed, where could people be found so callous and corrupt as to be capable of wielding such weapons? Could a person be such a wild animal that such things must be used to tame him?

The enveloping silence, the darkness, the blackness of the walls, the small candles, the malevolent statue-like soldiers with massive powerful figures, their height, the broadness of their shoulders, the harsh outline of their features, their uniforms of stark red and black, the excessive display of weaponry-pike, sword, rifle -- all merged into one composite image that terrified the eye of the beholder and made the heart shudder.

Through the two rows of soldiers in the frightening dimness and in death-like stillness, I walked to the end of the corridor. In my mind the question arose, "Where am I going and for what purpose? What is required of me and how will this all end?" As if in internal dialogue with my soul, I responded clearly, excluding all doubt: "I shall shortly arrive at the open door, exactly as the guard told me. Did he not give me clear instructions that I must write out the answers to the questionnaire?

"And what then? Later, surely Nachmanson's promise will be fulfilled, that I will be brought to the place where one speaks willingly or unwillingly."

lots of anti-Zionism came out of the USSR as well - moishe postone who i've linked to a number of times in this thread discusses that facet at length.

@ggreenwald
Bipartisan Senate bill to formally define unfair & excessive criticism of Israel -whatever that is - as AntiSemitism

https://www.casey.senate.gov/newsroom/releases/with-attacks-on-the-rise-sens-casey-and-scott-introduce-bipartisan-anti-semitism-awareness-act

The State Department’s definition, shared by the European Union, states, “Anti-Semitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, towards Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

Examples include, among other things:

Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews
Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust
Demonizing Israel by blaming it for all inter-religious or political tensions
Judge Israel by a double standard that one would not apply to any other democratic nation

Greenwald is too smart to not know that this comes originally from the State Dept: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/fs/2010/122352.htm - and imo is entirely reasonable especially since it concludes with "This act is not meant to infringe on any individual right protected under the First Amendment of the Constitution."

Greenwald is a bad person and you need to start subjecting his comments to far more rigor than you're used to, Dr Morbius.

I don't like the fourth one because it's so vague and open and applies solely to a state in its formal capacity as a state -- aren't we judging nations by "double standards" p much all the time?

this is very clearly a Don't Criticize Our Apartheid Ally bill, and I don't need GG to tell me that.

Well, it's repeating itself - a double standard is any standard that you wouldn't apply (without relevant reason) to comparable thing.

it's vague, I agree, but when unpacked:

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
Multilateral organizations focusing on Israel only for peace or human rights investigations

this seems fairly reasonable. if you condemned Israel for bombing Gaza in 2014 but don't have a word to say about Syria then it's probably not the war crimes that bother you but the [Jewish] people committing them.

Is Syria a democratic nation now?

this is very clearly a Don't Criticize Our Apartheid Ally bill, and I don't need GG to tell me that.

If you have a critique to make and you don't need GG to tell you it, then make it yourself. There are actual anti-BDS bills in various States (the first one in the country coming from our new liaison to the UN). This is a restatement of policy that has already existed from the State Department for years now and has no actual legal consequences.

So it's okay to commit war crimes as long as you're not a democracy? xp

Well obviously

No I was just saying that criticizing Israel and not Syria is not a good example of the behaviour this terrible definition of anti-semtism is trying to decry

A recent FBI crime report notes that 58.2 percent of religiously-motivated hate crimes were due to the offender’s anti-Jewish leanings, and the Anti-Defamation League found that the number of anti-Semitic attacks at colleges and universities doubled in 2015. Currently, the DOE’s Office for Civil Rights has stated they will not tolerate incidents such as these, but has not issued firm guidance on what constitutes anti-Semitism. The Anti-Semitism Awareness Act would codify the definition as one adopted by the U.S. State Department’s Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism.

this is really the key. in addition to the [controversial] Israel stuff that GG and Dr Morbius choose (for some strange reason) decide to focus on, this is really about codifying the State guidelines for the DOE. The State guidelines included guidance regarding Israel, but primarily is regarding domestic hate crimes committed against Jews like the ones mentioned in this press release over the last few weeks which were predominately (entirely?) directed at American Jews qua Jews and had nothing to do with Zionism or Israel. Glenn Greenwald is a literal piece of shit that he looked at this and decided it was good fodder to just attack Israel again, despite it being secondary and despite it coming directly from a pre-existing State definition.

(for some strange reason)

say what you mean

i've said it many times in the past and feel no compunction about saying it again. in addition to explicitly prejudiced comments that you've made about jews among other marginalized groups your continued fixation on israel as one of your predominant areas of interest (despite your constant demonstration of superficial knowledge regarding it) provides more evidence that you're a bigot.

Something I expect to hear from Z****** bigots. Jimmy Carter guilty too?

You don't know anything about me and Jews. Not a thing.

if you were a jew, or a palestinian, or even demonstrated even a small level of actual interest in the middle east or israel that go beyond rote condemnation, or demonstrated a similar issue in any other foreign country besides israel, i might be more inclined to treat your occasional outbursts as coming from a legitimate position of interest. instead you only pipe up to give knee-jerk condemnations, frequently citing the same 2 or 3 mindless twitter commentators in lieu of your own statements. you seem to know nothing about israel outside your trendy pejoratives (apartheid! genocidal! etc), and appear to give little attention to any other country in the world except maybe your own. so why the interest in israel particularly? i think it's pretty obvious.

And stop lying about these "explicitly prejudiced comments," as difficult as it must be. xp

Jimmy Carter has many of his own issues including that he preached supersessionism and classical antisemitic positions for many years even before he got into the Israel criticism business. It's still quite chutzpadik to compare yourself to him. He knows plenty about Israel and helped negotiate one of the country's most important treaties. You appear to know nothing about Israel except that Zionists are bad and oppress Palestinians. Demonstrate I'm wrong. Show me comments you've made on Israel that are not just condemnations. Surely if your interest in not simply bigoted you would have topics of note that concern you that are not simply negative.

Oh gmafb everyone here knows what I'm referring to. Don't make me go dig it up. xp

Posts you had second thought about and decided not to post - put them here

I let you and your vast stores of knowledge take care of the praise.

This is pointless and fatigiung for everyone else. Ta.

everyone here knows what I'm referring to.

You know who I don't like? Self-absorbed, bigoted, hateful fundamentralists from every religion.

Actually I think this is an important conversation. Explain to me how my understanding of your participation on this topic on this board is wrong. How is it anything but just pathetic Jew-baiting? You clearly don't know shit about Jews, Judaism, or Israel. Your only comments on the topic are negative, and like I pointed out, often explicitly bigoted. If you don't think you're a bigot maybe consider that the evidence to the contrary suggests that you don't even know your own mind. And btw don't think anyone hasn't noticed that Jews aren't your only topic. I've also seen you make sexism and racist remarks as well. You're not a very nice or good person and you should either work on becoming a better one or stop taking offense when people notice.

*thread turns into blurry dust-cloud a la Peanuts*

my mind is not what i put on this board, you goddamn maniacal fuckface. buhbye

xp

Mindlessness isn't an excuse for bigotry, though it's often an explanation for it.

or "God said this was my apartment 5000 years ago"

You clearly know practically nothing about Judaism, Zionism or Israel. You certainly don't know anything about the ideological foundations of Zionism if you think it has anything to do with promises from the Bible.

At the very least show a little humility by learning about the topics before pontificating about them. Not being a jackass should take moral precedence over not embarrassing yourself with your ignorance, but if the latter turns out to be a bigger motivator for you then I suggest you embrace it.

On a much more relevant note, Mosaic Magazine just translated for the first time a Jabotinsky article from 1911 on antisemitism:

http://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/2016/11/no-apologies-how-to-respond-to-slander-of-israel-and-jews/

Mordy OTM. I actually like the doc, but he's wrong here.

That (State Dept) definition, from a 2010 memo, includes as examples of anti-Semitism “delegitimizing” Israel, “demonizing” Israel, “applying double standards” to Israel, and “focusing on Israel only for peace or human rights investigations.”

Critics have pointed out that those are political — not racist — positions, shared by a significant number of Jews, and qualify as protected speech under the First Amendment of the Constitution.

According to the draft, the bill does not adopt the definition as a formal legal standard, it only directs the State Department to “take into consideration” the definition when investigating schools for anti-Semitic discrimination under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act....

Jewish groups opposed to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank were quick to denounce the bill.

“Instead of fighting the anti-Semitism entering the White House, this bill will go after 19-year-old students carrying protest signs against human rights abuses,” said Tallie Ben Daniel, academic program manager for Jewish Voice for Peace, in a statement. “This is not how to fight anti-Semitism, this is a recipe for restricting civil liberties like the right to criticize a government for its policies.”

https://theintercept.com/2016/12/02/senate-responds-to-post-trump-anti-semitism-by-targeting-students-who-criticize-israel/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/swastika-cupcakes-birthday-gift_us_583df40ee4b04fcaa4d562a6

Critics have pointed out that those are political — not racist — positions, shared by a significant number of Jews, and qualify as protected speech under the First Amendment of the Constitution.

According to the draft, the bill does not adopt the definition as a formal legal standard, it only directs the State Department to “take into consideration” the definition when investigating schools for anti-Semitic discrimination under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act....

so what is wrong with greenwald? is he disingenuous or a moron?

You can be both.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/12/27/neo_nazis_are_planning_an_armed_march_against_jews_in_richard_spencer_s.html

i would move