GOP hates infrastructure projects, that isn't going to happen
― Οὖτις, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:40 (seven years ago) link
it wouldn't look like those dull volkswagons for sure. It would be the best car!
― sarahell, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:40 (seven years ago) link
the wall is an infrastructure project, right
― iatee, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:40 (seven years ago) link
^^
― sarahell, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:41 (seven years ago) link
IDK, I wouldn't rule it out as part of a deal for slashing other fed spending. plenty of politicians of all stripes still like pork barrel projects don't they?
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 14 November 2016 19:41 (seven years ago) link
Sanders didn't have to beat Trump amongst white voters, just chip into it enough to win the extremely close Midwest. And he would probably have at least tried, though probably not for the right reasons.
However, he didn't win the primaries. And it wasn't close. And it wasn't because the DNC conspired to put all the debates on saturdays and leak to Clinton that people in Flint was concerned about Flint. The real question is more that if someone like Sanders could win the election, how will you get them to win the primaries? And Sanders' recent tweets doesn't help with that, sigh.
― Frederik B, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:41 (seven years ago) link
Don't know much about Peter Daou, but I do recommend the album he produced for his wife Vanessa setting Erica Jong poems to soft jazz.
― Distribution of all possible outcomes (Sanpaku), Monday, 14 November 2016 19:42 (seven years ago) link
I don't think it's just the socialism tbh, I think it's also something about the way Sanders just sounds sincere in his concern for working people, backed up at least in some sense by his record and consistency. Some people just respond to a perception of personal integrity. I think it would indeed be a mistake for democrats to think they can just, like, reengineer some standard-issue democrat slightly toward a more class-oriented politics and win. I mean that's sort of what "progressive Clinton" was.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, November 14, 2016 2:37 PM (three seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
during the primary campaign there was a whole messaging movement, parroted by many on these threads, that anything suggesting clinton was insincere or not a true progressive was simply naked misogyny or an internalization of right-wing talking points. it was repeated and trotted out so often that i think the people making the argument even came to believe it themselves. seems in retrospect like projecting a whole host of positions, beliefs, and virtues on someone like clinton was...a mistake
― k3vin k., Monday, 14 November 2016 19:43 (seven years ago) link
#actually bernie's recent tweets...are fine
― k3vin k., Monday, 14 November 2016 19:44 (seven years ago) link
yeah, that was stifling to say the least xp
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 14 November 2016 19:44 (seven years ago) link
think it's weird to suggest that this election was actually about issues/policies/positions in any way - it was about competing cults of personality.
xp
― Οὖτις, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:45 (seven years ago) link
in the end clinton's image was successfully tarnished by those right-wing talking points, so it seems like 'not-not a thing' that the left spent the primary tearing her image down
― iatee, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:46 (seven years ago) link
is that same peter daou!!!!? i interviewed him (and vanessa) in the 80s re some dance records they made for nu-groove
i guess that was a very long time ago
― mark s, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:47 (seven years ago) link
who even thought Clinton was a true progressive? I mean, there were plenty of people on the left bringing out right-wing talking points to discredit her, some of them scarily false -- scary, in that I had hoped people on the left would "know better." But she was/is a moderate, and the argument in her favor was pragmatic.
― sarahell, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:47 (seven years ago) link
K3vin get's it. The answer to the election of Donald Trump is obviously to care less about misogyny.
― Frederik B, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:48 (seven years ago) link
i see you've been running my posts through google translate again
― k3vin k., Monday, 14 November 2016 19:49 (seven years ago) link
k3v, do you watch the History Channel show, Vikings?
― sarahell, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:50 (seven years ago) link
a lot of mistakes were made in the democratic primary, the first one being forgetting that the purpose of running a primary is to gauge what your electorate wants, not to confirm that they want what you want them to want
― ciderpress, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:50 (seven years ago) link
I'm not going to sit here and say that progressive concerns about Clinton's closeness to big finance (for example) weren't sincere or warranted, or can just be dismissed as internalized right-wing talking points; but in the cold light of day, SECRET SPEECHES TO GOLDMAN SACHS looks like pretty weak tea next to "Trump may name Jamie Dimon as Sec. of the Treasury."
― and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Monday, 14 November 2016 19:50 (seven years ago) link
i do not xxp
― k3vin k., Monday, 14 November 2016 19:50 (seven years ago) link
My anecdotal evidence is that the democrats who didn't vote for Bernie in the primary did so in large part because "he can't win the general election". Any stats back this up?
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, 14 November 2016 19:51 (seven years ago) link
idk I voted for Bernie in the primary, even though I didn't think he could win the general election, but I thought that showing that a lot of people were concerned about the issues he was talking about could influence the party platform in the general election.
― sarahell, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:52 (seven years ago) link
looks like pretty weak tea next to "Trump may name Jamie Dimon as Sec. of the Treasury."
admittedly, that is just as scary as "Obama may name Jamie Dimon as Sec. of the Treasury" was 8 years ago.
― Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Monday, 14 November 2016 19:54 (seven years ago) link
k3v: Whatever. If you really think dem women will respond to the election of Donald Trump, a man who bragged about sexual assault, by being less likely to see sexism or misogyny amongst candidates, enjoy losing the next primary as well.
Sanders lost because he lost the black vote, mainly. And he never really cared about outreach and dismissed the south as unimportant, so there was no surprise there.
― Frederik B, Monday, 14 November 2016 19:55 (seven years ago) link
xp same here as what sarahell just said
― and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Monday, 14 November 2016 19:55 (seven years ago) link
i honestly don't know what this is even in response to
― k3vin k., Monday, 14 November 2016 19:57 (seven years ago) link
bunch of xposts -- trump likely has a better shot at passing a big infrastructure bill than hrc would have. Dems like Sanders/Warren could present him with a plan and say "All Dems will vote for this, now we just to peel off a bunch of Repubs." Trump could then tell Ryan, "look, if you don't go along w/ me on infrastructure, the Dems will be getting credit for it." And then maybe the Repubs do end up backing it. i don't know if Trump has it in him to do this though.
― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Monday, 14 November 2016 19:58 (seven years ago) link
hearts and minds!
― sarahell, Monday, 14 November 2016 20:00 (seven years ago) link
i voted for Sanders in the primaries because i thought he had the best chance of winning the election, same as with Obama in 2008
― ciderpress, Monday, 14 November 2016 20:01 (seven years ago) link
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger),
I'm not sure I can have this argument again.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:01 (seven years ago) link
xxpost The election was cult of personality vs. cult of no personality. As warm and funny as many close to Clinton claim she is, none of that has ever come across in her public persona.
And not to say that Trump isn't a scumbag (or douchebag or any other type of disreputable bag), but "bragging about sexual assault" struck me as left-wing overreach (no pun intended), the kind of thing that fires up the right. He was talking about the perks of celebrity, that women give men — even ratty 70-year-olds — sexual consent they wouldn't give ordinary people. I mean, Ron Wood just fathered twins for fuck's sake!
― dinnerboat, Monday, 14 November 2016 20:02 (seven years ago) link
GOP hates infrastructure projects, that isn't going to happen― Οὖτις, Monday, November 14, 2016 2:40 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Οὖτις, Monday, November 14, 2016 2:40 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
This means they're definitely going to happen right
― badg, Monday, 14 November 2016 20:03 (seven years ago) link
― and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Monday, November 14, 2016 2:50 PM (twelve minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Seriously? The current treasury secretary is the former COO of Citigroup
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:04 (seven years ago) link
sorry, of a Citigroup subsidiary
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:05 (seven years ago) link
one small silver lining of this election is that I finally feel freed to completely ignore all Frederik B posts about US Politics
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:07 (seven years ago) link
lolling @ a car that looks like Trump
Assuming the yellowish color is tacky gold leaf it's probably this:
http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/homer_front1.jpg
― Their all losers and I like associating with loser (Dan Peterson), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:07 (seven years ago) link
Frederik's posts will from now on pass across my eyes like the reflections of clouds drifting across window panes
I hate to use the word "optics" but there's a continuum from "any former C-level banking exec" to "guy whose name is nearly synonymous with the Great Recession and billionaire whining."
― and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:08 (seven years ago) link
the "infrastructure projects" about which the MSN is going on about are tax credits to private business, i.e. a bunch of bullshit
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:08 (seven years ago) link
well Paulson was CEO of Goldman Sachs. Pre crisis, but there's definitely a precedent for big wall street guys as treasury.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:10 (seven years ago) link
― mark s, Monday, November 14, 2016 1:47 PM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yes that's him! i've tried his music and it is lolzy at best.
aaand he was also in (i think) a falangist militia in lebanon as a young man. life takes many turns dunnit.
― goole, Monday, 14 November 2016 20:10 (seven years ago) link
Yeah, right, man alive. I should be so lucky. You will complain and nag as much as you've always done.
dinnerboat: He said he didn't even wait. There was no consent involved, no time for it, and the many women who came forth and said he'd assaulted them proved that point very well.
― Frederik B, Monday, 14 November 2016 20:11 (seven years ago) link
Daou went pretty quickly from boasting about fighting terrorists as a falangist to claiming that he was conscripted for military service and didn't harm a fly. The latter seems more probable.
Xp
― Bubba H.O.T.A.P.E (ShariVari), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:13 (seven years ago) link
(xps to Alfred)
so it's usaid for the homeland, iow
― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:14 (seven years ago) link
Is it tax credits now? I thought the plan was reducing credits and subsidies and lowering the overall business tax rate, as well as major legislation related to offshoring assets.
― sarahell, Monday, 14 November 2016 20:16 (seven years ago) link
Frederik B: But the question of consent is complicated by his wealth and fame and power. Would these assault allegations have stood up in court? Again, not defending him, I just think it wasn't nearly as cut & dried as the "unrepentant rapist" narrative implied, which I think further alienated many voters.
― dinnerboat, Monday, 14 November 2016 20:19 (seven years ago) link
he used to go into dressing rooms to peek at naked 15 year old girls wtf is wrong with you
― and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:21 (seven years ago) link
I've been thinking about how Democrats used to own the trade issue. Most free trade deals were opposed by the majority of rank and file Democrats in roll calls, and they were passed only by wide Republican support with a few cross-overs. Every one of them created winners and losers, and the winners were in the financial industry that mediated the flow of American capital to overseas factories, creating greater inequality. Here, Trump adopted what was once a Democratic issue, one we abandoned.
As technocrats, the Clintons and other DLC Democrats could point to the consensus among economists, but 1) much neoliberal economics has the character of religious dogma, where many arguments arrayed in its favor full of unfounded assumptions and logical gaps, and 2) there has always been an undercurrent of heterodox economists willing to poke holes, like Steve Keen and Ian Fletcher.
If Democrats choose to focus on bread and butter issues over the odd policy side dishes of safety nets + identity politics, I hope we start taking what the heterodox economists have been saying seriously. The arguments for neoliberal economics rarely address economic inequality, and I think we've made mistakes assuming that maximizing average standard of living and attempting to address the resultant increasing inequality with policy band-aids offers the same qualitative good as trade policies that ensure American high-employment businesses are competitive. Other countries we compete with aren't nearly so beholden to neoliberal economic dogmas and do intervene in these ways.
― Distribution of all possible outcomes (Sanpaku), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:22 (seven years ago) link
yeah I've heard a lot of people defending this as "no this is what it's like for celebrities" but there have been stories for years and years about Trump assaulting women. tons of them came out during the campaign. it's not hard to believe Trump having some serious PUA-style beliefs - "every woman wants to sleep with you, even if they say they don't"
― frogbs, Monday, 14 November 2016 20:23 (seven years ago) link
I thought the plan was reducing credits and subsidies
The plan is whatever somebody last pitched to Trump. Eventually the Congress will come up with something they can pass. Trump's role will be to make contradictory announcements, create a huge hubbub, then take full credit for everything that people like about the new tax plan, plus take extra credit for things that didn't happen, but sound really good.
― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Monday, 14 November 2016 20:24 (seven years ago) link