the last line of the short story is so so maudlin (can't quote it directly, but it's like "and then we went upstairs, to make love, to make you.")-- but it works? weirdly?
Because - iirc - we know what she knows, that no-one else in that situation could ever possibly know.
― quis gropes ipsos gropiuses? (ledge), Monday, 14 November 2016 09:56 (seven years ago) link
If the aliens know the future, then why don't they already know how to communicate with humans? It seems like the time stuff makes a mess of the plot.
― jmm, Sunday, November 13, 2016 9:42 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
the aliens never know how to communicate with humans. they never learn any human languages. it's always the humans who learn to communicate with them.
this movie was good. yeah it's almost overwhelmingly emotionally manipulative but for whatever reason it worked for me.
― na (NA), Monday, 14 November 2016 15:42 (seven years ago) link
What is the significance of the alien ships dissolving at the end? Is it like, they've planted the seed of the new language, and that's all that's needed?
― jmm, Monday, 14 November 2016 15:58 (seven years ago) link
I think I still need to digest my thoughts on the movie, but the only elements I took issue with were those that were grafted to the plot of the short story to up the stakes. The military angle seems almost a given in these times, but the changing of the time and circumstances of the daughter's death... well, maybe that was a given, too.
There were small touches that by inclusion or absence broke with mainstream film convention that I appreciated. The lack of a romantic progression subplot, the lack of subtitles in the conversations with the Chinese general.
― mh 😏, Monday, 14 November 2016 17:16 (seven years ago) link
The lack of a romantic progression subplot,
"Wanna make a baby?" was enough.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 14 November 2016 17:24 (seven years ago) link
I much preferred that than injecting a cut-up montage of falling in love across the movie, or throwing a sex scene into the brief time they were sequestered in the base camp near the alien ship
― mh 😏, Monday, 14 November 2016 17:28 (seven years ago) link
I really, really liked this. reading this thread has exposed a lot of obvious plot holes but i almost never pick up on that stuff. i was really taken aback and moved by the way it played with time and the viewer's perception. i don't care that the logic is weak, putting the chronological ending of the movie at the beginning and swimming back and forth in time later on just blew me away. the complete opposite of Sicario, an utterly meaningless bore.
― flappy bird, Tuesday, 15 November 2016 22:52 (seven years ago) link
I didn't like how the movie implied that they did understand human language, in that scene where she goes into the ship without the screen. But I guess it still works in the logic of the movie, where they're not trying to communicate with humans, but get the humans to learn their language so that they can help them with some unspecified crisis 3000 years in the future.
None of that was in the story btw, nor was the international drama. In the story, all the different countries work peacefully to understand the heptapods, and then they leave without explanation. And there's no real benefit to humanity learning their language, it's entirely focused on the narrator's personal experience.
Also I was initially they substituted cancer for a mountain climbing accident (which seemed like the only part of the story that had potential for cinematic action), but I'll bet they did it so the audience wouldn't be asking "why wouldn't her mom just tell her not to go mountain climbing then?"
― sam jax sax jam (Jordan), Tuesday, 15 November 2016 23:19 (seven years ago) link
this sounds fucking stupid but if James Morrison likes it I will probably give it a try
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 15 November 2016 23:24 (seven years ago) link
really good imo. better than clever and didnt schmaltz the emotional impacts
― the kids are alt right (darraghmac), Tuesday, 15 November 2016 23:47 (seven years ago) link
hated prisoners, thought sicario had the best scenes of the year in a stupid and clumsy movie, this guy needs to keep away from plot is the takeaway
― the kids are alt right (darraghmac), Tuesday, 15 November 2016 23:51 (seven years ago) link
I liked it but it is pretty dang schmaltzy and I bet shakey will hate it
― Immediate Follower (NA), Wednesday, 16 November 2016 03:41 (seven years ago) link
To protect myself, i have to say that my approval is a combination of Wow, this Hollywood Take on a Ted Chiang Story is Actually Quite Good and also Wow This Looks Nice
― I hear from this arsehole again, he's going in the river (James Morrison), Wednesday, 16 November 2016 05:29 (seven years ago) link
I liked this well enough, although my enjoyment was tempered by my current depression about everything.
I still think The Arrival with Charlie Sheen might be a better alien flick. It's a cool b-movie with a timely global warming message and no portentous weepy crap.
― Rob Boss (latebloomer), Wednesday, 16 November 2016 06:50 (seven years ago) link
That said, the twist was cool and it was well-acted, shot, directed etc etc
― Rob Boss (latebloomer), Wednesday, 16 November 2016 06:59 (seven years ago) link
this was the first movie i saw after the election and it made me feel better: the overwhelming and unprecedented human event of the aliens landing feels so removed when you're swept up in this dreamlike nonlinear stream of events spanning years, all while clinging so closely to amy adams' character. it's a very personal movie, and very affecting in its manipulation of time and perception. as much as the eventual riots showed the world in chaos because of this event, the vast seas of time seemed to swallow it whole. it was comforting
― flappy bird, Wednesday, 16 November 2016 07:03 (seven years ago) link
SPOILERS IN THIS POST
I'm the opposite of Alfred in that I've read the story but haven't yet seen the movie. So I've been trying to figure out from what I've read here and elsewhere how much and how completely the central idea of the story comes across. It sounds to me like it's thematically intact, but if that's the case I've seen a lot of reviewers missing some big parts of it -- which could be because it's not quite made clear in the movie, I don't know.
The story is a bit of a narrative experiment -- like someone wrote above, telling the story both backwards and forwards at the same time, and constructing a fictional device that allows that. The device in this case being the alien language -- which, at least in the short story, doesn't allow people to time travel or "see the future," it lets them see their entire life at the same time, even as they experience it sequentially. So, you can see the whole picture at once, but what you do is watch yourself move through it. You don't/can't change it. It basically challenges the idea of linear time and wonders what it would be like to experience time differently -- told through the story of one particular character and her life. Also interesting thoughts in there about how language structure shapes our experience of the world. Anyway, it's a good story. I'm curious to see what the movie does with it.
― Mike Pence shakes his head and mouths the word ‘no’ (tipsy mothra), Sunday, 20 November 2016 05:30 (seven years ago) link
it's a better ted chiang adaptation than that bradley cooper movie where he takes pills and becomes wicked smaaart.the aliens look great and so does the squid ink "writing"
not sure how a linguist can afford such a nice house though. floor-to-ceiling window views!
― Philip Nunez, Sunday, 20 November 2016 06:08 (seven years ago) link
contracting for the military on some arm of "the war on terror" probably helps with that
― I hear from this arsehole again, he's going in the river (James Morrison), Sunday, 20 November 2016 08:15 (seven years ago) link
― Y Kant Jamie Reid (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 November 2016 13:26 (seven years ago) link
I liked this but unfortunately I kept on thinking 'this is not what the american response would look like if the alien landing happened while donald j trump is president'
― 龜, Sunday, 20 November 2016 13:49 (seven years ago) link
Don't blame me, I voted for Costello
― kinder, Sunday, 20 November 2016 13:57 (seven years ago) link
as we were leaving the theater on the down escalator i turn to my gf and go "so i guess she made the choice to still have the kid even though she knows the kid is going to die of incurable cancer"
i forgot that this might have been a 1981 "wow i can't believe darth vader is luke's father" level gaffe to make as one leaves the theater
― 龜, Sunday, 20 November 2016 14:56 (seven years ago) link
as you and your girlfriend were leaving the theater, you turned to her with a smile and asked, "Wanna make a baby?"
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 20 November 2016 15:03 (seven years ago) link
as me and my wife were leaving on the down elevator we prepped for decontamination and debriefing
― the kids are alt right (darraghmac), Sunday, 20 November 2016 15:22 (seven years ago) link
yeah, idk, I thought the original story and the movie both indicated that free will exists, but all of the events of the past and future can be seen through the heptapod language. so, despite seeing things in your future you may do differently given prior knowledge, it's still static. so the real gift of the language is an understanding of self that transcends free will, living your life as a whole, not moment-to-moment. your sense of self is no longer rooted at the moment level but at the entire life level.
― mh 😏, Sunday, 20 November 2016 15:56 (seven years ago) link
Dolan's a world apart from Villeneuve, to my eyes.
Dolan is 90% awful, Villeneuve is only about 65/70% awful.
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Sunday, 20 November 2016 17:15 (seven years ago) link
just back from seeing this and i liked it quite a lot - like someone else said unthread tho i'd have been happier if it was just 100% procedural sci-fi. the whiteboard scenes were by far the most interesting
couple of observations::
- the reveal relies on the audience paying no attention to the fact that amy adams apparently doesn't age a goddamn day in the 15 years or so between 'let's make a baby' and her losing her daughter- between this, interstellar and ant-man we've now had three movies in three years where the denouement involves extradimensional shenanigans anchored by a parent's love for their daughter
― not all those who chunder are sloshed (bizarro gazzara), Sunday, 20 November 2016 18:18 (seven years ago) link
lol have you not seen predestination
― the kids are alt right (darraghmac), Sunday, 20 November 2016 18:20 (seven years ago) link
because lemme tell ya
― 龜, Sunday, 20 November 2016 13:49 (four hours ago) Permalink
^Yeah this definitely affected my experience watching the movie. I felt sad and queasy during the whole thing.
― Rob Boss (latebloomer), Sunday, 20 November 2016 18:20 (seven years ago) link
not only have i not seen it i'd never heard of it until now tbh
― not all those who chunder are sloshed (bizarro gazzara), Sunday, 20 November 2016 18:38 (seven years ago) link
The denouement of Contact was similar to that too.
― jmm, Sunday, 20 November 2016 18:41 (seven years ago) link
i noticed the age discrepancy with amy adams but chalked it up to the filmmakers' laziness- this kind of shit is so common now. i saw 'Loving' yesterday, which takes places over the course of nearly 15 years, and the characters don't age one bit.
― flappy bird, Sunday, 20 November 2016 21:25 (seven years ago) link
Maybe the alien ships' atmosphere is good for the skin
― Rob Boss (latebloomer), Sunday, 20 November 2016 22:01 (seven years ago) link
Chinese General's "I'll never forget the words you said" made me think of thishttps://frinkiac.com/meme/S06E17/221170.jpg?b64lines=IFdoeSB3b3VsZCB5b3UgbmVlZCB0byBzZWUKIGl0PyBZb3UncmUgdGhlIGdlbml1cyB3aG8KIGludmVudGVkIHRoZS4uLiBwcm9kdWN0IGluCiBxdWVzdGlvbi4=
― sktsh, Sunday, 20 November 2016 22:10 (seven years ago) link
the setting seemed ambiguous enough that i feel it could've taken place in 2040-70 but i may have forgotten some obvious signs. either way, i thought the same thing about her gorgeous house, maybe being a teacher is lit in the future
― flappy bird, Sunday, 20 November 2016 22:12 (seven years ago) link
enjoying movies is a state of mind isnt it
― the kids are alt right (darraghmac), Sunday, 20 November 2016 22:26 (seven years ago) link
does it bother anyone else that in the movie Louise begins having visions of her daughter immediately after she first exchanges written language with the heptapods? at this point the only symbols they've shared with her are their names, but apparently this minimal contact is enough to alter her fundamental perception of time. iirc in the Chiang story her temporal leapfrogging doesn't begin until after she's had several sessions with the aliens and sufficient time to immerse herself in their language. much of the story's impact comes from the way its structure echoes her mental state, and the movie sacrifices some of this impact (and believability) by relegating the daughter narrative to a series of conventional 'flashbacks'.
I also find it odd that she couldn't remember what she said to the Chinese general, given that she experiences all moments of her post-contact life simultaneously. that scene only really makes sense if you assume she's caught in a spooky mental time travel feedback loop that isn't invoked at any other point in the film and that contradicts the way she supposedly perceives time.
― memories of a cruller (unregistered), Monday, 21 November 2016 03:01 (seven years ago) link
That loop, if I'm not mistaken, also contradicts the way the precognition is constructed in the story. Iirc the way that Chiang describes it is that one can conceive of one's entire life, but cannot engage in activity to change or alter the outcome, because the two states of conception and action are one and the same.. but maybe I read it wrong.
I also was under the impression that Heptapod B's pictograms would increase in size and complexity as the format of the desired communication grew larger. Words, then sentences, then paragraphs, and then thinkpieces were contained within single pictograms, and Louise's capacity toward precognition was a result of having to construct increasingly complex grammatical structures in a non-linear fashion.
― fgti, Monday, 21 November 2016 06:40 (seven years ago) link
As for "she didn't appear any older in the future" problem, I thought it was a deliberate red herring to make the audience assume Louise was having flashbacks, not flash-forwards
― fgti, Monday, 21 November 2016 06:41 (seven years ago) link
^^^
― I hear from this arsehole again, he's going in the river (James Morrison), Monday, 21 November 2016 07:29 (seven years ago) link
Also, if they had aged her as poorly as the digital floating hair looked, you would not have liked it
― I hear from this arsehole again, he's going in the river (James Morrison), Monday, 21 November 2016 07:30 (seven years ago) link
i liked this movie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTc3PsW5ghQ
― qop (crüt), Monday, 21 November 2016 07:40 (seven years ago) link
well, yeah, of course that's what it is - my objection is that it's a bit of a cheap, lazy trick. plus it's still kinda weird even if you do go along with the movie and assume they're flashbacks, since she appears not to have aged or changed anything about her appearance between having her baby and the present
it's the kind of twist that seems better suited to the written word than a visual medium, i think?
― not all those who chunder are sloshed (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 21 November 2016 08:15 (seven years ago) link
redhead age p well fyi
amy adams, for instance
― the kids are alt right (darraghmac), Monday, 21 November 2016 10:56 (seven years ago) link
i'm married to one, and she has at least changed her hairstyle in the 10 years i've known her
― not all those who chunder are sloshed (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 21 November 2016 11:16 (seven years ago) link
That movie is completely flabbergasting. Sarah Snook is really good in it tho
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Monday, 21 November 2016 11:16 (seven years ago) link
(straight and bobbed > curly and shoulder-length > straight and past shoulders > curly and mid-length, fyi) xp
― not all those who chunder are sloshed (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 21 November 2016 11:18 (seven years ago) link
That movie is completely flabbergasting.
Yeah, Predestination is p whack, but most of the whackness actually comes from the Heinlein short story it's based on.
The central 'first contact' section of Arrival was very gripping, but the beginning and end are boilerplate mush (in other words, Alfred OTM). Cannot for the life of me see Villeneuve as a major or 'important' filmmaker.
― Darcy Sarto (Ward Fowler), Monday, 21 November 2016 11:32 (seven years ago) link