NO DAPL and other pipeline concerns - Keystone, etc.

Jacob I used to also wonder what the point was of pipeline protests, since stopping a pipeline wouldn't actually reduce our usage of fossil fuels.* Since then I've come to think that they're just sort of symbolic proxies of the fight against climate change. You can't effectively focus on "climate change" as much as you can focus on a specific thing being built, especially when it also happens to coincide with infringement on native american rights and have immediate potential environmental dangers (though honestly probably smaller and more isolated ones, and as noted an old pipeline is going to have even more risks).

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm reaching a point where I'm more worried about keeping the heat on our continued push into carbon-intensive fuel sources than I am about rationalistically getting things exactly right in terms of protest focus. Although I sort of go back and forth on it.

* in some remote way, it actually might, if it contributes to higher prices for fossil fuels, which would (1) impact usage directly and (2) make other fuel sources more competitive

I am all for a smart dialogue about the issues and if that involves a protest then I have no problem with that. Many long over due social injustices have been brought about through social protest. I have friends who work for Michels and friends who are at Standing Rock protesting. But I had to remove a few face books friends once they attempted to shut down valves on major transmission lines. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-canada-pipelines-idUSKCN12B26O This is the sort of action that endangers everything I thought the protest was about. The amount of misinformation out there about the practices of oil & gas companies is staggering and no one seems to care to find reliable sources of data. Like this article
http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/after-spill-federal-officials-not-sure-how-many-pipelines-cross/article_b23b48e0-b411-11e0-bc74-001cc4c002e0.html
I became furious reading it because of out right lies.

I do believe we need the DAPL, not because I work in oil and am an oil apologist. I look at the world we live in and can see that independance from fossil fuels is still not here. Do we have alternatives for jet fuel? Or http://www.ranken-energy.com/products%20from%20petroleum.htm It's terrifying when I really look around my house, even the records I love so much are ethylene and chlorine.

this 'checking in on facebook to foil the police/investigators' thing is totally fake right

Sorry to post a Ranken Energy list, f@ck those guys anyway. It would be easy to replace a lot of those items with non-petroleum made products.

I'm not jumping that train, but a credible friend of mine who is really involved with various strains of activism has, which leads me to think there may be something to it.

xp

yeah, it seems like a real thing, though who knows how effective

even if it doesn't foil the police, it has caught the attention of a lot of people who hadn't learned much about the issue before, so that's good. and also, as everyone starts hopping in on facebook comment threads to tell everyone that social activism is lame and that they'd be better off just donating directly one of several different funds set up to support standing rock, i'm sure it's led to a wave of donations that wouldn't otherwise have occurred. so, indirectly, that's a positive outcome.

but yeah, just wait for this to be complete and then we can sort the lazy gullible selfish dumbasses of the world vs the righteous: http://www.snopes.com/facebook-check-in-at-standing-rock/

This is a valuable read. http://mapabing.org/2016/09/09/dapl-is-the-biggest-issue-in-public-archaeology-right-now/

Whoa, this thread is amazing. Thanks so much. I'm pretty confused about this issue so this is great.

i don't know how anyone could be behind riding roughshod over native rights and lands in 2016, but here we are.
― harold melvin and the bluetones (jim in vancouver), Friday, 28 October 2016 11:43 (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You obv don't read Canadian politics boards (not counting the ILE thread or rabble). Btw, it seems like the NDP might tear itself apart over pipelines, with environmentalists against the AB NDP (their only provincial govt atm) and some of the labour wing.

― Spiritual Hat Minimalism (Sund4r), Sunday, October 30, 2016 10:09 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh I'm very aware! literally every energy project we hear about here in b.c. goes through traditional native land, often to which the local band holds title*, and the majority of the time the band opposes to no avail.

it is def a problem in the ndp/labour movement. in b.c. alone our biggest union opposes the Site C dam - our second biggest union will have lots of workers on the project and so supports it - while the provincial NDP are real flip floppers on energy issues - the ineffectual leader John Horgan suggesting he's "open to persuasion" to pipeline expansion in Metro Vancouver.

*aboriginal title is a sui generis piece of nonsense where despite holding title the band doesn't have the final say on what is done on their land, this is up to the federal government who have a "fiduciary duty" (i put that in scare quotes because while this is the legal wording this duty really does not resemble a fiduciary duty and essentially amounts to "have to hold some sort of consultation with the band before building a pipeline through their land with or without their consent")

http://m.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2016/10/video-dakota-access-pipeline-protest-absolutely-nuts-total-war-zone

I know those videos are meant to advocate the protestors point of view, but... no.

Personally, I'm with the commenters above that note this pipeline is greener than shipping the same Bakken oil via rail and truck.

I wonder how far some have thought about returning to the 1851 Treaty of Ft. Laramie to define Native American land rights.

http://www.ndstudies.org/resources/IndianStudies/threeaffiliated/images/laramie_large.gif

The treaty itself was a truce, soon broken, in which other tribes (Mandan, Hidatsa, Arikara, Assiniboine and Crow) attempted to corral the Lakota Sioux, who were considered a greater threat than white man.

Meanwhile, here's a PBS America by the Numbers Frontline episode about an Indian reservation (for the Mandan, Hidatsa, and Arikara) that benefited from the Bakken below their feet:

Native American Boomtown

^ Frontline

My kingdom for a WYSIWYG editor...

President Obama, in his first remarks on the violent standoff over an oil pipeline near the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation in North Dakota, called on both sides to show restraint and revealed that the Army Corps of Engineers was considering an alternative route for the project.

In an interview with NowThis news that was published on Tuesday, Mr. Obama said: “We are monitoring this closely. I think as a general rule, my view is that there is a way for us to accommodate sacred lands of Native Americans.

“I think that right now the Army Corps is examining whether there are ways to reroute this pipeline.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/03/us/president-obama-says-engineers-considering-alternate-route-for-dakota-pipeline.html

As of this afternoon the contractors building the pipeline haven't heard of any rerouting of the line. It's over 70% complete. Everything about this is weird to me.

This is a very enlightening thread and has made me learn much more about this than I already knew.
Popping in to say I love you Jacob and I hope you are well and I still have some records to send to you soon.

It seems to me that if the pipeline is rerouted at this late a date, SOMEONE is going to be taking a huge monetary loss.

Hi Ian!! When will you come to Texas??
http://www.npr.org/2016/11/02/500331158/north-dakota-commissioner-standing-rock-souix-sat-out-the-state-process

3-day xps to Sanpaku - a fair chunk of the FB chatter I see on this issue makes reference to that 1851 treaty, fwiw

also just gonna throw this in here, I don't have primary source confirmation

-@suntzufuntzu via twitter

Reminder that DAPL was re-routed through Standing Rock because Bismarck's residents feared it could poison their drinking water.

The Sioux are literally being forced at gunpoint to accept ecological risks that North Dakota's white residents refused.

Reminder that DAPL was re-routed through Standing Rock because Bismarck's residents feared it could poison their drinking water.
Why do you believe this to be true? I keep reading this but haven't found any source for it. It's my understanding that the Bismarck proposed route was rejected because it eliminated 10 miles, would have been within 500 ft of homes, and took out muliple road bores. One a road bore cost about $20,000. The route they choose was due previously disturbed ground, The Northern Boarder Pipeline's ROW.

http://www.psc.nd.gov/database/documents/14-0842/001-030.pdf

That was the wrong link, I meant to share this http://cdm16021.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16021coll7/id/2801

see this is why I'm glad you're on this thread, although I don't have one iota of sympathy for this company or industry there is a ton of misinformation going around on the protestor side (hence my disclaimer) that doesn't help anyone.

http://mondoweiss.net/2016/10/palestinians-standing-pipeline/

http://i.imgur.com/b6T7jwy.jpg

DAPL is so concerned for the safety of their own employees from the dangerous protesters that they refused to stop work for 30 days, even when asked by the obama administration. i'm sure they're just looking ahead to president trump, who will do everything he can to fast track construction and establish law and order.

you are most definitely not an asshole and the world is complicated.

to clarify, are you saying that the "ETC" is the line under the river that needs to be repaired before they can afford to even look at the one you raised an alarm about?

this is all somewhat personal to me as well - my childhood home is threatened by a potential pipeline through the property (regardless of anyone's opinions pro or con, the reality is that is reduces the value of the land and makes it more difficult for them to eventually sell and make the move to an assisted living facility like my mom and stepfather want to do.

meanwhile, my dad moved to a nearby state where a lot of people are moving, and it is painfully obvious that the planned pipeline through my mom's place is a direct response to the demand created by my dad.

I don't know what else to say other than thanking you again for your perspective and knowledge.

ETC is who will operate the DAPL once construction is complete.

https://cldc.org/2016/11/13/back-to-the-war-zone/

http://www.kfyrtv.com/content/news/Largest-bank-in-Norway-pulls-its-assets-in-Dakota-Access-pipeline--401768696.html

North Dakota law enforcement deployed tear gas and water hoses against hundreds of activists on Sunday night, during a tense bridge standoff amid ongoing protests of the Dakota Access Pipeline.

Protesters also reported being hit with rubber bullets and percussion grenades during the standoff, which took place on a bridge just north of the encampments established by indigenous and environmental activists in opposition to the controversial pipeline.

“They were attacked with water cannons,” said LaDonna Brave Bull Allard, a Standing Rock Sioux tribe member and founder of the Sacred Stone camp. “It is 23 degrees [-5 °C] out there with mace, rubber bullets, pepper spray, etc. They are being trapped and attacked. Pray for my people.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/21/standing-rock-protest-hundreds-clash-with-police-over-dakota-access-pipeline

There were NODAPL protest here in Austin and San Antonio last weekend. nearly three-fourths of my Facebook friends have NODAPL somewhere on their photos or feeds. I don't know what to say about this anymore. When I started working in pipeline construction it was going to be a temporary job, a way to make money to buy records and get away from everything. But I beginning enjoying the challenge of it, that I was so out of my element. For years no one understood what I did. Anytime my job came up in conversation usually the person would ask me if I work in fracking and I would have to explain the difference between exploration, production and midstream. Usually they would get bored halfway through. Now whenever I bring up work, the conversation goes to DAPL. I do feel bad for how the protesters are being treated. I knew this would happen when the FBI issued environmental terrorist watch notices to all the oil & gas companies.

I apologize if that came off sounding underhanded or backhanded. I'm tired.

hey no you are doing god's work.

just be careful to not lose you job over this.

Not necessary to apologize - everyone is tired. Your posts here been far more illuminating on this than the propaganda out there.

@AlleenBrown
Sheriff on using water cannons on protesters: “It was sprayed more as a mist...to help keep everybody safe” #NoDAPL

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/21/medics-describe-how-police-sprayed-standing-rock-demonstrators-with-tear-gas-and-water-cannons/

http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/article/33832/1/people-are-treating-the-dapl-protest-like-burning-man

an obvious development, and perhaps a contender for most 2016 story of the year.

Around me there has been a lot of calls for Obama to change things in Standing Rock in the past few days,cam ilxorsians who know this situation better than me could help me figure out if pressuring more local elected officials (city/county levels) would be more effective?

According to NPR, the governor has ordered an emergency evacuation of the protestor camps, based on the idea that an approaching winter storm puts 'public safety' at risk. I presume this would allow him to enforce his evacuation order using police or the national guard to coerce the protestors to leave, or else to arrest them on charges of "resisting a lawful order to leave".

iow, loks like shit's gonna get real ugly again real soon and heads will be broken, all in the name of "protecting" the people whose heads get bashed.

Do you guys realize how cold it will soon be in North Dakota? When I first experienced it it literally took my breathe away and froze my eyelids shut. I hated being in North Dakota, the cold is brutal. Virtually nothing you think you know about it is true. The reporting on this story has been some of the most factually inaccurate and biased I have ever seen. The protestors are not on their own land or federal land. They're on private property owned by the pipeline company. They have no right to be there. ETC literally planned this pipeline to avoid the Standing Rock land because of their behavior towards other pipelines that they agreed upon then kept changing how much money they wanted. Now this has become dressed up as something entirely other. Pipelines are not the major source of water pollution, farming runoff and road runoff pollutes more rivers across the united states than any pipeline has. Do you guys really want Obama to step in and stop this? On what grounds?

I'm pretty sure the Standing Rock Sioux knows how cold it is in North Dakota, though...

I'm pretty disgusted by how the police have responded regardless of whether the pipeline should ultimately be built. Maybe if the company had made an effort to offer concessions to the standing rock sioux and give them some kind of meaningful assurance about protection of their water things would be different.

Do you guys realize how cold it will soon be in North Dakota?

I spent a couple of winters attending college in Minnesota so I have some idea, yes. "Soon"? It's still November, Jacob. Rather too early for a breath-snatching, eyeball-freezing cold snap in my somewhat limited experience. If, rather than a convenient political excuse for evicting protestors, this storm constitutes a real public safety emergency, I will be extremely surprised. What their next move? Arresting ice fishermen?

"The protestors are not on their own land or federal land. They're on private property owned by the pipeline company."

this land is unceded sioux territory. Now I know most people just ignore this, but Sioux have been fighting for things for years; the black hills were never ceded, even though the government eventually paid out for them, the tribes never took the money for it. So this fight is about much more than just the pipeline crossing the river.

Pipelines are not the major source of water pollution, farming runoff and road runoff pollutes more rivers across the united states than any pipeline has.

This is a specious argument imo. First, comparing something bad to something worse does not change that bad thing into something good.

Next, ag runoff is ubiquitous and affects more or less every river in the USA. Pipelines are local. Of course, if you average the two sources of pollution across all the rivers in the uSA, pipeline pollution appears much less significant, but the local pollution is still pretty goddamn "major". If I dump a truck load of pig shit in front of your house, you won't comfort yourself by saying that pig shit pollution, on average, is not a problem for homeowners in the USA.

Aimless could you explain why you think there will be a local failure of this pipeline? Do you have knowledge of a failure on the contractors to pass failing x-rays of welds, was the coating not within the specs? Do you have actual data that this pipeline was not built within the federal guidelines? There are 12 existing pipelines crossing underneath the same lake that is up for question, none of which has leaked due to people monitoring and surveying the cathodic protections on these pipelines. I am deathly afraid of flying in airplanes due to how unsafe in my mind being in a airplane seems. But I look at the statistics and I keep flying. Because I like making a decision based on data rather than on feelings, which seems to be the motiving force behind this protest. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/os-ed-standing-rock-sioux-other-side-110916-20161109-story.html
Today I posted this on my Facebook and I guess I'll share it here
Through out the past month, I’ve seen many people posting various sites showing PHMSA’s map of pipelines leaks. Such as this one.
http://www.foreffectivegov.org/…/map-displays-five-years-oi…
I would like to provide some perspective on how this data is being used to prompt the idea that pipelines are unsafe and constantly having major problems. Whenever a gallon of liquid is spilled on the ground a report has to be submitted to the government, it’s a law. Route maintenance usually involves spills by a few gallons. Launching pigs, hydrostatic testing, valve maintenance, all of these tasks are performed regularly on pipelines. Whenever a spill happens the contaminated soil is removed and replaced. You can click on each spill at PHMSA's site and read any report. Most of those incidents are maintenance related. These sites state that since 2010 there have been 7 million gallons of crude oil spilled and that is true. We currently have a pipeline that on any given day, moves 100,000 gallons of crude oil. That’s one pipeline. There are around 2.4 million miles of pipelines crossing our country, and 72,000 miles of that carry crude oil. 7 million gallons might seem like a large number, but combine a few thousand miles of pipelines and that’s a less than a week’s shipment. If you do the math and take a honest look at the spills that do occur and what could be possible but is prevented due to technology, the idea that pipelines are not safe does not hold up. Take some time to do some research and learn about what we do in the industry. Smart pigging, cathodic protection, coatings, anomaly digs, ACVG surveys, leak detection surveys, row inspections, NDT and ultrasonic testing, ESD valves, etc. Hopefully we can start having a honest discussion about new pipeline construction and prevent what is currently happening up north.

If the Lakota do not want the pipeline routed through land they have a legitimate claim to under treaty, as a sovereign nation, then let the Corps of Engineers reroute it across land the Lakota have no claim upon. Maybe their objections are for mere emotional reasons. Maybe they will be all the poorer for not having this wonderful pipeline running across their land. That's not for us to decide. They don't want it.

Of course, rerouting it would probably involve condemning land owned by non-tribal people. But why would anyone object? As you state, it is as safe as can be. Maybe the Corps could route the pipeline through some ND towns, since as you say no one has any reason to think it would be a problem, other than people's irrationality. But how about we let white people be the irrational ones for a change?

^^^^ there you go.

admission: I'm a registered member of the Oglala Sioux tribe from Pine Ridge. This protest is about more than the safety of the pipeline and the river at this point; this is an indian uprising against broken treaties. With the essential demise of AIM after the 70's I think people got used to thinking of indians as complacent; but it's been percolating in Canada with Idle No More for a few years. I do not think this protest will end well once Trump is in office. The current stance is an ordered evacuation that will not be actively forced (although there is a threat of fines); i'm concerned that once Trump is in, there will be forcible removal.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-gates/on-the-standing-rock-tribes-dakota-pipeline-protest-/10154529600627457

Wow, that guy seems sympathetic to Native Americans. He even writes that he is sympathetic to Native Americans several times. Of course, later on he writes this:

The new Standing Rock water system, provided for by a very large gift to the Standing Rock tribe from the good people from the United States of America, insures and provides a state of the art new complete water system, guaranteeing the tribe a reliable, safe water source for generations to come.
It is sad that the tribe repays this significant gift with a lack of truthfulness, and incites protest based on the same.

that film does really grapple with those issues, I seriously recommend it.

Going to watch this tonight. Thanks!

After watching If A Tree Falls I'm further perplexed by this whole idea of actions. There seems to be a disrupt between reality and what these people want the world to be. By burning down offices or equipment, shooting at offices, stopping traffic or any of these actions, to me it seems the only long term consequences are certain individuals feel good and that are doing "something" then they are unable to deal with the criminal consequences of what those actions entail. But what have they really achieved aside from ending up in prison or with a record?

isn't it up to the individual how far they wanna take things and what price they are willing to pay as a potential consequence?

I think McGowan (subject of film) would argue exactly what you do here - his actions didn't really accomplish that much, nor did the other ones. the only one that seems to have had total local support was the horse meat factory (which was particularly horrifying and egregious if you look up the history, the locals were glad to see it burn). There's a good reason why he has focused his post-release activism around prisoner's rights as opposed to environmental direct action, he feels it's more worthwhile to pursue.

my POV is that raising awareness of an issue can be worth doing time. I mean, are you familiar with the Plowshares movement? totally nonviolent, but they get long prison sentences. isn't that their choice, to raise awareness?

(disclaimer: a lot of those people are/were personal friends)

and a few of those people are friends of friends of mine. I had many heated debates with those friends years ago. One close friend was wire tapped by the guy. But that friend had broken the law and got caught and I warned her that the police aren't just going to give up on searching for you. My main problem with these actions is the amount of misinformation that propels their ideals. One of the places they burned down was unrelated to their hostiles.

unrelated to what they thought was going on I meant.

definitely, I agree.

https://theintercept.com/2017/05/27/leaked-documents-reveal-security-firms-counterterrorism-tactics-at-standing-rock-to-defeat-pipeline-insurgencies/

Internal TigerSwan communications describe the movement as “an ideologically driven insurgency with a strong religious component” and compare the anti-pipeline water protectors to jihadist fighters. One report, dated February 27, 2017, states that since the movement “generally followed the jihadist insurgency model while active, we can expect the individuals who fought for and supported it to follow a post-insurgency model after its collapse.” Drawing comparisons with post-Soviet Afghanistan, the report warns, “While we can expect to see the continued spread of the anti-DAPL diaspora ... aggressive intelligence preparation of the battlefield and active coordination between intelligence and security elements are now a proven method of defeating pipeline insurgencies.” [...] In an October 3 report, TigerSwan discusses how to use its knowledge of internal camp dynamics: “Exploitation of ongoing native versus non-native rifts, and tribal rifts between peaceful and violent elements is critical in our effort to delegitimize the anti-DAPL movement.” On February 19, TigerSwan makes explicit its plans to infiltrate a Chicago protest group. “TigerSwan collections team will make contact with event organizers to embed within the structure of the demonstration to develop a trusted agent status to be cultivated for future collection efforts,” the report notes, later repeating its intent to “covertly make contact with event organizers.”

TigerSwan consistently describes the peaceful demonstrators using military and tactical language more appropriate for counterterrorism operations in an armed conflict zone. At times, the military language verges on parody, as when agents write of protesters “stockpiling signs” or when they discuss the “caliber” of paintball pellets. More often, however, the way TigerSwan discusses protesters as “terrorists,” their direct actions as “attacks,” and the camps as a “battlefield,” reveals how the protesters’ dissent was not only criminalized but treated as a national security threat. A March 1 report states that protesters’ “operational weakness allows TS elements to further develop and dictate the battlespace.”

TigerSwan pays particular attention to protesters of Middle Eastern descent. A September 22 situation report argues that “the presence of additional Palestinians in the camp, and the movement’s involvement with Islamic individuals is a dynamic that requires further examination.” The report acknowledges that “currently there is no information to suggest terrorist type tactics or operations,” but nonetheless warns that “with the current limitation on information flow out of the camp, it cannot be ruled out.” [...] Such ethnic and religious profiling of protesters was not unusual. An October 12 email thread shared among members of the intel group provides a striking example of how TigerSwan was able to cast suspicion on specific individuals and communicate it to law enforcement officials. Cass County Sheriff’s Deputy Tonya Jahner emailed several other officers, including two FBI agents, with an overview of information provided by “company intel.” The information pertained to a woman whom Jahner labeled as a “strong Shia Islamic” with a “strong female Shia following.” The woman had “made several trips overseas,” Jahner wrote.

fuckheads

jesus christ

fwiw, a fair number of those "terrorists" would have been US combat veterans from Vietnam, the Gulf War, Afghanistan and Iraq.

nothing matters

who could have guessed

http://www.ksfy.com/content/news/Crews-cleaning-up-Keystone-Pipeline-leak-in-Marshall-County-458046943.html

"at least 210,000 gallons of oil "

goddamn it

actually this is great timing, the board's vote on Keystone XL is just a few days away and this is extra ammo against it

I added Keystone to the thread title to make this thread more searchable because qualmsley started a separate Keystone thread. Open to suggestions on the name change though.

https://www.ecowatch.com/transcanada-pipeline-explodes-west-virginia-2576042392.html?xrs=RebelMouse_fb&ts=1528427379