Is this anti-semitism?

It might just be one very dedicated Italian anti-Semite.

it is

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/26/13418304/alex-jones-jewish-mafia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vST61W4bGm8

it'll certainly sound that way to his nazi supporters but i'm not sure that every insinuation of a sinister controlling elite cabal is necessarily an antisemitic one. is every nut who believes in the illuminati, or free masons, or the bilderberg conspiracy, always really talking about jews? nb that i think it's an irresponsible rhetorical tact and could very well inflame the passions of antisemites. i'm just not sure the text itself rises to that level.

http://religiondispatches.org/reason-to-worry-a-scholar-of-anti-semitism-reflects-on-the-2016-election/

mordy this is a phenomenon i think about a lot and have probably written several strained posts and then deleted them -- basically, are we seeing some kind of 'antisemitism w/o jews' and how did that happen?

the alex jones/zerohedge paranoid crowd have successfully pushed the boogeyman 'globalist' to the forefront as the chief enemy of the people. it's really hard to tell who's cynical and who's truly duped.

how many people are there who have begun to look at the world in an essentially, classically antisemitic way, but because of how coded and "updated" that discourse is, it would never even occur to them that that's the nub of their beliefs?

conflating alex jones and zerohedge feels... weird?

zerohedge is pretty disgusting but maybe not exactly as disgusting as alex jones

fanbase is identical afaict

I find this "antisemitism w/o Jews" theory a little uncomfortable, as though Jews are so inextricable from paranoid conspiracy theories that their presence is always implied. I mean there have also been antisemitic associations of Jews with capitalism, and also with anticommunism -- does that mean that anticapitalism and anticommunism are both antisemitic discourses at heart?

for me the question is how it's being received. if white supremacists are getting "jew" then you have to deal w/ that even if the guy designing the commercial made sure not to mention that soros just happens to be...

antisemitism w/o Jews? Sounds like Eastern Europe.

Brought up in some interview I came across recently, but when Shakespeare and Marlow wrote "The Merchant of Venice" and "The Jew of Malta," respectively, both in the late 1500s, there were essentially no Jews in England at all, having been formally expelled in 1290 or something.

I guess that the idea that there is a small group of people actually plotting and consciously controlling things (as opposed to big abstract social forces) is what distinguishes anti-semitic forms of anticapitalism and anticommunism from not anti-semitic forms of anticapitalism and anticommunism?

i think hurting raises a good pt tho - if that small group are all secret lizard people, and all your listeners agree that what we're talking about are lizard people, are we really still talking about jews?

To believe deeply and truly in the globalist conspiracy entails a receptivity to all similar ideas, because that belief is implanted and sustained through impressions and emotions, not through evidence or facts. The global Jewish conspiracy of bankers and media is nearly indistinguishable from the globalist conspiracy theories. It follows that the same brains would provide fertile grounds for either or both theories. Even if one predominates over the other, they are likely to coexist.

that seems to make sense - people who subscribe to this conspiracy theorist worldview are by definition not very discriminating or rational about what they believe, it seems unlikely that they would swallow all of the not-explicity-anti-semitic mad theories, but suddenly become sceptical and cautious when they come across anti-semitic mad theories

yeah xp I mean I think the idea of a global conspiracy can manifest itself in many forms, can be shapeshifting and, unsurprisingly, often incoherent. So in some of the more paranoid literature there is a blurring btw rothschilds, masons, lizard people, whatever the group/force that is the powerful world overlord perfectly manipulating the conditions of our existence.

Mazel Tov Cocktails... anti semetic freudian slip?

i think more likely just a dumb person

if white supremacists are getting "jew" then you have to deal w/ that

Yeah

let me sketch out a scene:

person steadily imbibes "socialism of fools" analyses where, variously, bilderbergs, goldman sachs, international finance, the central banking system, self-dealing urban elites, consensus washington, cosmopolitans, interventionists/neoconservatives and or the vague mass of diplomats/NGO ivy league types and well-connected party lawyers are behind it tall. exposing them and breaking their lamprey-like grip on the world is vital.

person basically says as much to you about what's really going on and who's really pulling the strings

and what do you say back? i dunno buddy, that all sounds pretty antisemitic, don't you know what you sound like? where are you getting this shit?

and their reply to you is how dare you, this isn't about religion, you read oppression into everything, i love israel (maybe) and wish the US/UK/wherev was more like it, you liberals look at someone proud and fed up and clear-eyed and see a nazi

and you're left wondering, ok do i take that at face value? or is this an antisemite who's getting off on lying to me?

compartmentalization is a hell of a drug

Conspiracy theories can form a monological belief system: A self-sustaining worldview comprised of a network of mutually supportive beliefs. The present research shows that even mutually incompatible conspiracy theories are positively correlated in endorsement. In Study 1 (n = 137), the more participants believed that Princess Diana faked her own death, the more they believed that she was murdered. In Study 2 (n = 102), the more participants believed that Osama Bin Laden was already dead when U.S. special forces raided his compound in Pakistan, the more they believed he is still alive. Hierarchical regression models showed that mutually incompatible conspiracy theories are positively associated because both are associated with the view that the authorities are engaged in a cover-up (Study 2). The monological nature of conspiracy belief appears to be driven not by conspiracy theories directly supporting one another but by broader beliefs supporting conspiracy theories in general.

http://spp.sagepub.com/content/3/6/767.abstract

wow

alex jones is actually antisemitic this isn't hard. zerohedge is... not?

(i ran a search on globalist on the latter and saw a series of guest posts by some dude from 4lt-m4rket.com which seem pretty wild, but outside of those, which are relatively few compared to the sheer volume of zh i don't think it gets pushed much at all?)

https://jewishphilosophyplace.wordpress.com/2016/11/09/trump-swastikas-philly/

obviously a lot of ppl are hurting today but i am so fucking angry at these older white jewish males - and i know quite a few of them - who voted for trump because they thought idk that ivanka would protect us. we elected a man who ran on a campaign of blaming others - primarily Muslims and Latinos but as things get worse, and they will, they will need new people to blame, and Jews have always been at the center of the white supremacist cosmology. we're the ones who control the money, who control the media, who have tricked the west into letting all these brown ppl in so that we can destroy white culture. they think that we'll be spared because ivanka is a convert. they are selfish and they are stupid and honestly i've never been as scared in my life for my family + children. i may have mentioned this on the other thread but i'm getting passports for my kids next week. my parents are serendipitously looking at homes right now in israel. a few minutes ago i could not stop crying because i feel like in one day we've given away so much and for nothing. and i know this is in the anti-semitism thread but any one who is going through this now no matter what minority group they belong to my heart goes out to you bc in you've borne the brunt of most of this but it looks like no one is getting out alive.

https://jewishphilosophyplace.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/trump-swastia.jpg

i'm not willing to be one of the idiot jews who hung out in europe through 1934 and 35 and 36 and 37 and 38 because it could never happen here

so Mordy, at what point do we bail on this shit? My wife is ready to get out of the country right now, but I'm more inclined to want to move to a more liberal state. I really don't know what the appropriate course of action is.

I think if they start bombing/burning synagogues/Jewish schools that would be a pretty strong impetus for me.

my father in law texted my wife late last night: "GO TRUMP. Good for the country and for Israel!" Fucking moron.

my wife is of lithuanian-jewish background (her grandfather came here from lithuania) and apparently there is a kind of right of return for american Lithuanians to get citizenship which she could take advantage of? I guess our choices would be that or Israel unless I could get a job somewhere else.

Live in Lithuania? With Trump's boss breathing down their necks?

we can't let any of this happen

... and NATO Schmato powerless to do anything about it?

i really hope this is just temporary hysteria and by this time next year i'll be chiding myself for getting worked up about fears that never materialized. i don't want to leave. i love my country and my state and my town. it's just all v scary atm.

It's a very good question, and I find it troubling that I even have to ask: what would it take? What would it take to make me leave this country? My kids asked me last night and I had no real answer. I would be happy to leave, or at least would have no problem doing it, beyond practicalities. I have a sister in England and a SIL and family in Australia. There are places to go. I just wonder what it would take.

I can't even imagine what it's like to be Mexican right now, or gay, or anyone of color. Or even a woman. Anything is possible.

a few minutes ago i could not stop crying because i feel like in one day we've given away so much and for nothing. and i know this is in the anti-semitism thread but any one who is going through this now no matter what minority group they belong to my heart goes out to you bc in you've borne the brunt of most of this but it looks like no one is getting out alive.

― Mordy, Wednesday, November 9, 2016 2:24 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

mordy i feel you. thank you for your presence, wisdom and humor in all these related threads lately, they have been a personal bright spot for me. im not jewish but i am latino and i feel deeply sad and scared today. i hope this is temporary hysteria too. i felt it during GWB in 2000 and 2004 but this just seems way way more unpredictable and worse

thinking of you as another dad of little kids, too.

this is super hard.

yes I was looking at the photo I took of my wife me and my 5yo daughter grinning and wearing our I voted stickers and thinking how much I wanted this for my girls to grow up in a world where a woman was president and not just any woman but one who I thought would do a good job and my heart was just breaking. and I just don't have the heart to talk to her about it. She hasn't asked about it and I'm not going to bring it up - they're still so young why bring them into this but I feel such a tremendous sense of loss. I feel like I have this luxury almost bc they're so young still I can't imagine what I would tell them if they were a little older.

My girls, 9 and 12, are doing just fine. They are still familiar mostly with a world of such positivity and progress in their short lives already that they have no reaction other than generic disappointment and a reassuring ability to look forward with strength and optimism, which in turn gives strength to me.

I kickstarted a book not long ago called Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls and they are just starting to send them out- their announcement of delivery was predictably bittersweet- they were hoping to be releasing it under more auspicious circumstances.

x-post

josh, that;s very heartening. thank you.

Weirdly, my wife has practically exploded into a mania of activism. She says it has been helping, and I believe her. And we'll follow her lead.

I should note in the name of full disclosure that my kids have grown up in a diverse community of progressive values, where tolerance and inclusivity have been stressed at school as much as the three Rs. It has paid off to such an extent that it scares me to think of all the communities throughout the country where the opposite may be true. Which in turn makes me think of Sting's "Russians," which may be the real tragedy here.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/trumps-favorite-senator-hates-global-intellectual-types.html

Not that I'm not empathetic but ffs going after Golda Meir?

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2016/11/kent_state_students_demand_rem.html

KENT, Ohio - Several student groups have asked administrators to remove a quote by Golda Meir, the former prime minister of Israel, on the wall of a classroom building.

A photo of Meir is next to the quote:"Trust yourself. Create the kind of self that you will be happy to live with all your life. Make the most of yourself by fanning the tiny, inner sparks of possibility into flames of achievement."

The students don't oppose what she said but object to Meir. They want the quote and photo replaced.

"While she might be a model for some students, her legacy is more complicated for many of us," wrote Yousof Mousa, president of Students for Justice in Palestine, in a Nov. 1 opinion piece for kentwired.com.

Mousa wrote that Meir had policies and statements that were expressly racist against Africans and once said that Palestinians don't even exist as a people.

"The fact that Meir's picture and quote decorate our hallways where we take classes saddens us," Mousa wrote. "Kent State should be as much our home as it should be for all students. Yet, this is not what home feels like, and this contributes to a climate that makes us feel like we do not belong here."

Her views were supported by the Spanish and Latino Student Association, Ohio Student Association and the Muslim Students Association.

"It's from a person connected to the death of many Palestinians," Mousa told a kentwired reporter this week. "That's where the problem is."

. . .

Mousa told kentwired he first noticed the quote last year.

The groups suggested that the quote could be replaced with a quote by another Jewish or Israeli leader.

"Our campus deserves role models that believe in justice, equality and rights for everyone that want to call Kent State home," Mousa wrote Nov. 1. Please make the walls in our halls of learning reflect this climate of diversity and equity."

Sounds like they have their attention on the important issues.

dersh says bannon isn't an anti-semite (or i guess that there's no evidence that he is) and i'm inclined to agree w/ him. a lot of the bannon = antisemite stuff seems like overreach.