Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds 'Skeleton Tree' (September 2016)

i never said nick was actually goth i was fake quoting general media idea of him, if that was unclear

and i think nick stays with the bad seeds because he trusts them. and maybe he's insecure at heart about striking out alone. ai think he probably enjoys the creative language that he's established with the seeds vs teaching new people how to understand what he wants

i don't think that's a bad thing nor an impediment to creativity

Goth is like Balearic really, it's just a feeling, nearly every genre has its goth Wing and there is literally no version of goth that excludes Nick Cave.

Everyone goes goth in the end. It's just a question of how they get there and what they do when they're there.

Hammond grooves and bespoke clothing. Isn't Cave a mod?

the movie is devastating. the 3D doesn't add much except that sometimes that you feel situated in the weird folds and corners of the rooms they occupy. i didn't feel like it was too long, felt like it stopped right when it hit a wall, which is the inarticulacy and illegibility of grief and trauma, but also the song where the camera telescopes out into a view of the earth rotating literally lifted me out of the movie at its deepest emotional pocket. everything else was v beautifully shot and staged, the lighting arrangements in the studio in particular.

I also love the scene early on where cave is talking about overdubbing a vocal on an improvised song and how it was hard to find the one, because everyone playing "didn't know where the one was, or each had a very different opinion of where the one was"

So surprised that Cave isn't working up music with new people more frequently.
― Stevolende, Sunday, September 11, 2016 8:09 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

His son died. He even said in the movie he couldn't function without Warren.

Not everybody has seen a movie that just got limited distribution one night last week

Regardless of that, your surprise that Cave continues to work with a tried and trusted group of collaborators is frankly baffling.

At one point I thought the idea of reinvention was pretty core to Cave, Certainly seems to have been to Mick Harvey in that interview from the mid 80s. So I'm surprised that he is still sticking with the same band structure that he has done for 32 years.
I don't think there are many artists who do stick to the same structure for that long.
I find it pretty creepy that you would find that idea baffling. It seems to be more common for artists to change as life alters the way they see things and new influences come into play.
I thought I'd explained that several times. So if you still can't understand that i think that might just be your problem not mine.

I do think that it would be interesting to hear other collabrations between him and new people. I thought that was something that kept things fresh for most artists.

I did think vegemite girl's point about "and i think nick stays with the bad seeds because he trusts them. and maybe he's insecure at heart about striking out alone. ai think he probably enjoys the creative language that he's established with the seeds vs teaching new people how to understand what he wants". was interesting and probably valid. But I would still like to think that Cave was an artist still in some level of flux so continually changing and that sounds like getting overly familiar with other artists quirks might not be the most conducive to.

Also I'm surprised that he still uses the name of a band that first came together with a couple of core co-founders who have long since left. Would have thought that bad Seeds might be replaced with another name when Harvey left. Which hasn't happened. but there have been a couple fo reasonably lengthy interval in band activity during that I think.

For me the Bad Seeds have never been much more than a glorified backing band (and yes i'm aware of Harvey's and Ellis' musical direction therein). His name as an (music) artist is Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds, his name as a person is just NC. Kinda like the PJ Harvey band but the other way around

The Bad Seeds have always been one of the best live bands in the world, so I think they're rather more than "a glorified backing band."

I want to love the new one because he was once my favorite artist in the world and I can't even imagine his grief, but his balladeer style has always been pretty hit or miss for me & I considered the Boatman's Call 100% "miss" so I'm kind of avoiding actually listening to this.

the last two records imo aren't really balladeer nick. they're slow-moving but very intense in their own way

for a long time my favorite cave record was no more shall we part and I don't think this record even takes place in the same world. it's a way more sinister and improvisational environment imo that only occasionally lapses into traditional prettiness

his balladeer style has always been pretty hit or miss for me & I considered the Boatman's Call 100% "miss"

noooooooo "far from me" is the best

yeah this one is not particularly close to Boatman's Call in sound

my idea of this record also may be complicated by the movie, which, bc of both its framing and the musical way in which it's filmed, made me trust the songs as they were being performed more than I might have otherwise

I don't think there's a real clear analog to this album anywhere in his catalog tbh

If it's Nick Cave and your grannie on bongos, it's the Bad Seeds, but like Smith, he's a songwriter who's vision of a song requires the collaboration of a group. They build off of textures they hear, and need the input of other to make the flurries of text musical. Even though Cave is a good instrumentalist, he's not a chords/top line kind of composer. This record certainly reverses his recent trend in that direction, but he's always gone back and forth.

If it's Nick Cave and your grannie on bongos, it's the Bad Seeds

Except when it's Grinderman.

Or soundtrack work which still seems to be mainly being done with Warren Ellis.

guys hash it out here

should the Bad Seeds still be called the Bad Seeds or is that an insult to the memory of Blixa's pointy boots?

I also love the scene early on where cave is talking about overdubbing a vocal on an improvised song and how it was hard to find the one, because everyone playing "didn't know where the one was, or each had a very different opinion of where the one was"

― who is extremely unqualified to review this pop album (BradNelson), Monday, September 12, 2016 12:42 AM (twelve hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Having heard the album without seeing the film, this makes perfect sense to me, and is one of the things I'm struggling with. If you told me this album was the result of Cave writing lyrics and then improvising melodies in real time--one take--over some of he and Ellis' soundtrack work, I'd definitely believe you. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but my problem is that very few of these songs are memorable beyond their (great, as usual) lyrics. The one song that even loosely approaches a 'pop' arrangement is "I Need You," in which NC seems to sing a different melody every time he sings the chorus, as if he's already forgotten it or something. I dunno, this has "I admire it more than I like it" written all over it. It sounds great, and the lyrics, as I said, are absolutely up to NC's high standards, but as an album, it's just not calling me back.

Of course, this makes me even more eager to see the film (and I empathize with those who live nowhere near the 'selected cities' where it is showing).

Listening again to "Rings of Saturn," an almost great song. He sounds like an MC who can't rhyme on beat.

If you told me this album was the result of Cave writing lyrics and then improvising melodies in real time--one take--over some of he and Ellis' soundtrack work, I'd definitely believe you.

― Wimmels, Monday, September 12, 2016 12:01 PM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So the impression I get is that for the second Grinderman record and "Push the Sky Away" that the writing process was essentially this, followed by a second longer (? I guessing here I don't really know) writing/recording session with the whole band(s) where everything was shaped a bit more into "songs" and some of the looser qualities were buffed out.

But, this record, with what they've said in the movie and kind of reading between the lines is, that instead of the second session they basically just tweaked what was already recorded, possibly instead of overthinking what they'd already done and maybe cuz it doesn't like they are going to tour anytime soon they didn't have to really worry about "how are we going to play this live?".

Pure speculation.

I liked the movie, I like the record so far, agreed on the vocals/lyrics are great, I've listened to a it few times, might let it marinate for a little bit before I go back to it.

It sounds exactly as you describe. I appreciate the approach, but I'm just not sure it works.

"Rings of Saturn" sounds like Cave's version of "E-Bow the Letter" to me

anyone else feel kind of gross about the existence of this album and movie

not trying to police anyone else's grief and how they deal with it. i can't imagine doing the same thing but i haven't been there. but something about the circumstances around the album investing it with extra meaning feels ... cheap somehow. not saying this was done intentionally or cynically. i guess the solution is to come back to the album/movie in five years and seeing how they hold up out of context.

the only thing that made me go o_O was the decision to show the movie in 3d which just seems so gimmicky. im still stoked to see it.

I didn't see the movie in 3D, but there were a couple shots I could tell were done with that effect in mind (the focus-pulling shot in the stairwell comes to mind, a couple of other spots) and while I think it would have been cool to see in the way Godard's 3d feature was cool to see I don't think it was crucial to my experience of it.

Maybe if I could have seen Warren's beard flying at me that would be sweet though.

As far as the "gross"-ness...the press surrounding the album/movie *cough*Amanda Palmer-thinkpiece*cough*feels a lot grosser that the actual product.

I think on some level it's clear that movie is his way of having to avoid interviews & touring while still doing something for his fan base. The moment in the movie where he talks about realizing he's snapping accidentally at a fan who is saying "we're all with you man" was pretty affecting, even if he immediately inverts it by wondering how he became a figure of pity.

I also I really don't like the millennial whoops on "Rings of Saturn" but I might feel worse knowing that's what they're called.

yep. I liked that song until I followed that stupid hyperlink, now I want to kill myself

My feeling is that while there may be a bit of catharsis, I have to imagine that much of this work was already "in the pipeline" and instead of putting the whole project on the shelf why not go ahead and delve? Look, first and foremost, the guy's a father, and nothing wrong with working through the grief of it all -- secondly, he's an artist, so, why the fuck not throw it out there? It's not like we're talking about some superficial dweeb like Kanye or something, this is Nick-fucking-Cave; and there's no filthy lucre in sight.

Some people need to get back to work as soon as possible after such a traumatic event just in an effort to restore some normalcy to their lives.

yeah, his wife said work was the only thing could keep her mind somewhat off what had happened

It's not as if he's following the Eric Clapton playbook for financializing his child's death.

Wonder if he's ever going to rethink the idea of doing a memoir. Would love to read his take on things.
Could be the being vehemently against doing something like that is something he left behind a while back.

Just hoping also that he's taking care of himself. Hate to hear that after a history of struggling with substance abuse he returned to something negative.

I find the set quite affecting, more than anything he's done since Abattoir Blues, maybe earlier. But yeah, the project as a whole brings out a lot of mixed feelings, which I wrote about over here http://dustedmagazine.tumblr.com/post/150358081791/nick-cave-and-the-bad-seeds-skeleton-tree-bad

D0rian Lynskey on twitter today: "I hope Skeleton Tree doesn't get pinned to its backstory forever. It's so beautiful and compelling even if you come to it knowing nothing."

While I truly, truly sympathise with this, it's probably wishful thinking. A record like this will never be separated from the backstory I think.

Hmm maayyyybe... I got into a lot of albums (can't think of many examples right now but we could do a thread) that are very concepty, Blood on the Tracks for instance, without any clue abt backstory

xpost - I don't know if it was a good idea to bring up Tom Waits as a counterpoint to Cave, not sure he's any less mannered or melodramatic than Cave! if anything his whole cracked hobo thing is more put on imo

Guardian reviewed the lp today
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/sep/15/nick-cave-and-the-bad-seeds-skeleton-tree-review-brilliant-music-on-the-verge-of-collapse

Great review

Very good review indeed. I'm not completely sure where he gets his info though. Believe it was mentioned in this thread that album recording was in progress when Cave's son died - but it's not very clear from the movie, is it? So when was the material written? It's true Cave talks a lot about fearfulness wrt artistic premonition, but he also suggests that both music and lyrics for Jesus Alone were improvised. Something that goes well with the director's comment that there's a certain helplessness to the recordings and Cave's discussion of allowing less accomplished, more intuitive lyrics.

I think this is a pretty incredible album, and is hitting me much more than Push the Sky Away ever did. Maybe I need to listen to that one again? Anyway, Cave sounds so ragged and weary on this, not in his usual stylized way but something much more haunted and hurt and hoarse. I'm trying to put my finger on something specific it reminds me of, something similarly incantation-y, but so far the comparison is eluding me. Not Leonard Cohen, not ... Scott Walker? Maybe later Scott Walker. I'll try to dredge it up.

I really love this record. I had to step away from it for a bit and distance myself from the experience of the movie to really let it sink in, but I loved the last one but yeah this one is really amazing, his voice is so good, weirdly the other day I was thinking this is kind of his Tonight's the Night, kind of ragged, sad, loose...at the same time this record kind of defies any easy comparison.

yeah that's a good comparison i think, def feels like it sort of stands apart in his catalog the way TNT does in neil's

TTN is a good call

Totally in love with this now. It gets better with every play.