Black Sabbath: Classic or Dud?

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Heaven & Hell = just as classic as the Ozzy years.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

It also seems like their most Led Zep-ish album, which is not a bad thing.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

I can't imagine anyone saying "dud" to (classic, vintage-line-up) Black Sabbath

except for the classic, vintage lineup's last couple albums. technical ecstasy, anyone? anyone???

fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:54 (9 years ago) Permalink

I'll stand by Never Say Die.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:56 (9 years ago) Permalink

Incontrovertibly classic. Funny I was just wondering this morning who'd win in a taking sides, Zeppelin or Sabbath? Maybe that's something to ponder, because who doesn't worship Sabbath?

steve hise, Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:57 (9 years ago) Permalink

Funny I was just wondering this morning who'd win in a taking sides, Zeppelin or Sabbath?

There's a thread in the archive on this very subject.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:58 (9 years ago) Permalink

In fact there are (sorta) two:

Taking sides : Zeppelin or Sabbath

Taking Sides: Led Zeppelin Vol. 4 vs. Black Sabbath Vol.4

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:00 (9 years ago) Permalink

Damn Ned, thanks, that was interesting.

Anyways one of the best love songs of all time is "Sweet Leaf."

steve hise, Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:07 (9 years ago) Permalink

Classic beyond classic. I can't imagine what almost any modern loud rock music (good or bad) would sound like without their influence.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:21 (9 years ago) Permalink

Black Sabbath (Warner Bros. '70) "The worst of the counterculture on a plastic platter - bullshit necromancy, drug-impaired reaction time, long solos, everything"....."Original grade: E. C-

robert christgau

elrod hendrix, Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:25 (9 years ago) Permalink

he just listed some of the reasons people LIKE them.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:29 (9 years ago) Permalink

This is like voting over and over and still being unsure your vote has been counted. I don't know anyone who would answer 'dud.'

57 7th (calstars), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:33 (9 years ago) Permalink

well, xgau.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:35 (9 years ago) Permalink

The worst of the counterculture on a plastic platter - bullshit necromancy, drug-impaired reaction time, long solos, everything"

yeah, he just made my case. if there were a meter for classic, the red part would go 0 +1 +2 BLACK SABBATH.

el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:52 (9 years ago) Permalink

Dud.

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 18:15 (9 years ago) Permalink

Wow, obviously I was the only person - ever - to not be into metal when I was younger. I don't even have enough knowledge of this subject to say classic or dud, but I will say they have never been my cup of tea. The whole aesthetic of that genre always put me off.

sleep (sleep), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 20:26 (9 years ago) Permalink

The first song that I loved was The Orb's Little Fluffy Clouds (live), and that is what made me start exploring music a bit. I didn't take interest in any form of rock until some years later when I was almost out of high school. To this day, I don't think I could really enjoy 70s/80s metal.

sleep (sleep), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 20:30 (9 years ago) Permalink

I think somebody said CLASSIC through Heaven & Hell. That is correct. Honestly the only post H&H I've ever heard is "Mob Rules". That was it for me.

My favorite all time UNDER-mentioned Sab songs: "Hand of Doom" "A National Acrobat" "The Thrill Of It All" "Junior's Eyes"

pheNAM (pheNAM), Thursday, 28 October 2004 00:13 (9 years ago) Permalink

Anyways one of the best love songs of all time is "Sweet Leaf."

-- steve hise (shistee...), October 27th, 2004.


Sweat Loaf comes ridiculously close to bettering it though.

Piers (piers), Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:44 (9 years ago) Permalink

But yes, I don't know how it could be possible to say DUD when considering the first six Sabbath albums.

OK, unless you're really not into heavy rock or metal. Is this the case for you Myonga?

Piers (piers), Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:47 (9 years ago) Permalink

Heh heh heh...GOTCHA! I was taking the piss. Completely, undeniably CLASSIC up to/including Sabotage.

[I couldn't believe that Sabbath even deserved the classic/dud treatment, because I couldn't believe that ANYONE considered 'em duds. I was gonna post an are-you-kidding? reply immediately after my "DUD" assessment. But just before I did, I read Xgau's little blurb about "drug-impaired reaction time" and thought it would be HIGH-larious to wait awhile before changing my opinion, then finally changing it FOR REAL, and then blaming my long delay on...yep, you guessed it! It might've been funnier if I'd waited a day or two, but I've always been terribly impatient.]

Anyway, again, CLASSIC through first six albums; and even the inferior Dio and Gillan lineups produced a great LP between 'em.

Finally, one of these days I'm going to finally buy Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die, just to see if they're really as bad as they're reputed.

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Thursday, 28 October 2004 06:48 (9 years ago) Permalink

I'll stand by Never Say Die.

-- Alex in NYC (vassife...), October 27th, 2004.


Finally, one of these days I'm going to finally buy Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die, just to see if they're really as bad as they're reputed.

-- Myonga Von Bontee (scottyfield...), October 28th, 2004.

Never heard Technical Ecstacy, but Never Say Die is grebt for the:

- Cover art
- Title track
- The start of 'Air Dance'

The rest is decent, listenable stuff, just not as good as what came before (and it's got synths, not that that's necessarily a bad thing).

Sasha (sgh), Thursday, 28 October 2004 06:58 (9 years ago) Permalink

Aha! Myonga - xpost - I suspected as much (well, I'll say that now). But it's got to only be a matter of time before someone answers dud for real... and I'll have to check out "Never Say Die" which slipped completely beneath my radar.

Piers (piers), Thursday, 28 October 2004 07:09 (9 years ago) Permalink

"Junior's Eyes" on Never Say Die rocks as well, dang it.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 28 October 2004 12:48 (9 years ago) Permalink

It does, but I can't get over the synth onslaught.

Sasha on a different PC, Friday, 29 October 2004 00:48 (9 years ago) Permalink

3 years pass...

Please someone tell me they know the two songs on "The Ozzman Cometh" comp: "Black Sabbath" ('70 Basement Tapes) and "War Pigs" (1970 Basement Tapes).

Both of these songs are clear evidence that BIMBLE IS MORE GOTH THAN YOU.

Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Sunday, 21 September 2008 04:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

Um there's actually more than two basement tapes on that comp (if you get the 2xcd version). Don't forget the awesome versions of "Fairies Wear Boots" and "Behind the Wall of Sleep".

I love the production of those tunes and all the alternate lyrics and verses. Total godhead.

Nate Carson, Sunday, 21 September 2008 09:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

yeah I will have to get the 2xCD version.

A goth's work is never done.

Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Sunday, 21 September 2008 09:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

is that "war pigs" the "walpurgis" version with the satan/witch themed lyrics? i love that.

REIGN IN FUDGE (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Sunday, 21 September 2008 10:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

yeah that's what it is, dude.

Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Sunday, 21 September 2008 17:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

3 months pass...

Moka, Tuesday, 23 December 2008 22:10 (5 years ago) Permalink

That...

Just... No. Ugh.

novaheat, Wednesday, 24 December 2008 01:58 (5 years ago) Permalink

<3 cindy und bert <3

cuisine of demise (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Wednesday, 24 December 2008 03:36 (5 years ago) Permalink

3 months pass...

Dehumanize is good too people.

III IV V (Bo Jackson Overdrive), Monday, 6 April 2009 20:02 (5 years ago) Permalink

heaven & hell did a dehumanizer song that was pretty good. i only knew it was dehumanizer because they put the cover to that album up on the big video screen

d20 riot tard (M@tt He1ges0n), Monday, 6 April 2009 20:12 (5 years ago) Permalink

Probably Computer God. Maybe TV Crimes.

Bill Magill, Monday, 6 April 2009 20:16 (5 years ago) Permalink

Back in 2007 Heaven and Hell played "After All (The Dead)", "Computer God", and "I"...the latter of which sounded really great. That song's held up very well.

A. Begrand, Monday, 6 April 2009 20:27 (5 years ago) Permalink

I is definitely great. I don't know if they played Computer God at the Radio City show I was at.

Bill Magill, Monday, 6 April 2009 21:02 (5 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

You've got to be kidding me.

http://www.reuters.com/article/peopleNews/idUSTRE54T00420090531

Advantage: Iommi.

Bill Magill, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:45 (5 years ago) Permalink

The reaction on dffd and probably all the other boards was "Sharon Is A Cunt"

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:49 (5 years ago) Permalink

that should infact be a poll

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:50 (5 years ago) Permalink

poll w/ one option

鬼の手 (Edward III), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:53 (5 years ago) Permalink

im sure theres x-factor viewers on ILX who like her. but someone do it to find out!

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:56 (5 years ago) Permalink

You're it Herm, i have no idea how to do it.

Bill Magill, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:59 (5 years ago) Permalink

you click on where it says new poll
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/Poll/EnterPollInformationControllerServlet?boardid=41

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:29 (5 years ago) Permalink

Instead of that, I'll just say that the vocals have always been the least important of the idea and ethos of what is "Black Sabbath". In Sabbath, it's:

mountain-moving guitar riffs and sound > thunderous but suprisingly agile rythym section >>>>>>>>> whoever the fuck is singing the lyrics the bassist wrote. Sorry Ozzy, but you now officially suck.

Bill Magill, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:37 (5 years ago) Permalink

If as Ozzy alleges Iommi's trying to claim "ownership" of the Sabbath name, why would he be recording and touring as Heaven and Hell?

Plunge Protection Team, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:41 (5 years ago) Permalink

Iommi bought the name from the others in the '90s, plus he copyrighted it in 2000. Game, set, match. Just cuz he's touring with another name doesnt mean shit, if you're implying he waived his rights.

Bill Magill, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

Deciblog has a good take:

http://decibelmagazine.com/Content.aspx?ncid=306741

A. Begrand, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 18:09 (5 years ago) Permalink

from that
Posted 6/2/2009 2:13 PM by Senile Animal

Sharon Osbourne = Cunt!

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 18:18 (5 years ago) Permalink

It's a farce. Fuck Tommy Clufetos

One Way Ticket on the 1277 Express (Bill Magill), Wednesday, 23 May 2012 18:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

anybody who doesn't have a fuck tommy clufetos tatttoo by this time next week is posing

cosi fan whitford (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, 23 May 2012 18:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

post your pics

it looks like something rupert the bear would wear (Algerian Goalkeeper), Wednesday, 23 May 2012 18:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

I shouldn't skim. I thought aero wrote "anyone who doesn't fuck tommy clufetos by this time next week is posing". If you miss the tattoo part it seems overly ambitious.

EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 23 May 2012 18:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

only the most kvlt will fuck tommy clufetos

cosi fan whitford (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, 23 May 2012 19:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

impale him on your blackened painis.

but he go's to a resturang and then die in a toilet (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, 23 May 2012 19:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

I thought that said blackened paninis for a minute and didn't see how that was tr00 or KVLT.

I must be old, I recognise nobody in ITV2 idents (aldo), Wednesday, 23 May 2012 19:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

fucking a panini machine would be metal as hell though.

EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 23 May 2012 19:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

Only if it was the devil's panini machine.

Hellhamster 2: Hamster Smashed Face (J3ff T.), Wednesday, 23 May 2012 19:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

sick sick sex.

EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 23 May 2012 19:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

7 months pass...

NEW ALBUM NEWS

The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Sunday, 13 January 2013 17:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

Nude album nudes.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 13 January 2013 17:34 (1 year ago) Permalink

No thank you.

afriendlypioneer, Sunday, 13 January 2013 17:39 (1 year ago) Permalink

I'm sure I'll give it at least one listen, but it's very fair to say I'm not expecting much.

The Jupiter 8 (Turrican), Sunday, 13 January 2013 17:44 (1 year ago) Permalink

I have to say the Rubin treatment is the only possibility of this being good but my expectations are low

too many encores (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, 13 January 2013 18:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

Had a brief discussion w/Adrien yesterday re the album title - my theory is that 13 counts the 8 albums with Ozzy, the 3 with Dio (including Dehumanizer) and Born Again. Sorry, Glenn Hughes and Tony Martin - you don't count.

誤訳侮辱, Sunday, 13 January 2013 19:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

What's rubin's track record for these late-in-the game comeback jobs? I'm assuming the first Cash one would be at the top, but a poll might be interesting.

WARS OF ARMAGEDDON (Karaoke Version) (Sparkle Motion), Sunday, 13 January 2013 20:23 (1 year ago) Permalink

His work on Ballbreaker is tremendous. Easily the best-produced post-Lange AC/DC record.

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Sunday, 13 January 2013 20:35 (1 year ago) Permalink

I like Ballbreaker. I also like Death Magnetic a whole lot, though.

誤訳侮辱, Sunday, 13 January 2013 20:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

"He's just a vibe merchant, really. He vibes you up. He's not one who gets involved hands-on," Iommi said. "He leaves it to you to do it and he sort of says, 'Yeah, I like it,' you know, or, 'I don't like it.'"

In Shut Up and Sing it's evident that Rubin didn't even set foot in the studio for the Dixie Chicks' Taking The Long Way. They show up at his house and play him what they've done so far. He says "Nice chorus" or "That sounds good." The only reasonable conclusion one could draw is that he's running a con job. Coincidentally or not, the production on that record is abysmal.

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Sunday, 13 January 2013 20:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

Rubin produced the third Slipknot album, and their singer, Corey Taylor, said this about that in 2011:

"There are some people who would love for me to toe the party line, which is basically, 'Working with Rick Rubin was a very enriching experience.' Let me give you the fucking truth of it: Rick Rubin showed up for 45 minutes a week. Rick Rubin would then, during that 45 minutes, lay on a couch and have a mic brought in next to his face so he wouldn't have to move...The Rick Rubin of today is a thin, thin, thin shadow of the Rick Rubin that he was. He is overrated, he is overpaid, and I will never work with him again as long as I fucking live."

誤訳侮辱, Sunday, 13 January 2013 20:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

Jakob Dylan also laid on the Rubin hate in a recent WTF interview.

sean gramophone, Sunday, 13 January 2013 20:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

you lazy for this one rick

tylerw, Sunday, 13 January 2013 20:51 (1 year ago) Permalink

Nice to finally hear someone call Rubin out. Really seems like he's been coasting on his rep for a while. But it benefits both parties: bands get the "cred" (such as it is) and resulting uptick in sales (however small) of having Rubin's name on their record (sound apparently being a secondary concern), and Rubin gets the dough.

xp

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Sunday, 13 January 2013 20:55 (1 year ago) Permalink

This has been the deal w/Rubin forever and forever - can he actually engineer at all?

too many encores (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, 13 January 2013 22:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

I assume (perhaps naively) that he must have some rudimentary engineering knowledge, at the very least.

I wouldn't think he was overrated if he was a serious non-engineering motivator a la Guy Stevens or Kit Lambert. But "hm, good chorus" does not production make.

Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Sunday, 13 January 2013 22:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

iirc in that Jay-Z doc RR was in there making beats like he did in the 80s. but as far as having any hands-on involvement when making a record means putting mics in front of instruments and putting hands on the mixing board, yeah.

some dude, Sunday, 13 January 2013 22:48 (1 year ago) Permalink

lots of bands have started doing an album with Rubin and then fired him or parted ways to finish it w/o him: U2, Weezer Crosby Stills & Nash, Velvet Revolver, Hot Hot Heat

some dude, Sunday, 13 January 2013 23:02 (1 year ago) Permalink

On those first four Danzig albums, he's producer on the first few, "executive producer" on the fourth one. Either way, he tends to use great studios and obviously hires some excellent engineers. But yeah, Reign in Blood was a long time ago.

I hope he can help Sabbath not sound overproduced. The Heaven & Hell record was perfect. I don't believe this will be nearly as good as that was.

Nate Carson, Sunday, 13 January 2013 23:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

gonna need a lot of smoothing for Ozzy's vocals, and pitch correction.....Dio was still singing pretty incredibly on that H&H studio album, but yeah the production on that was perfect for what they were doing.

NINO CARTER, Monday, 14 January 2013 01:09 (1 year ago) Permalink

Rubin produced the third Slipknot album, and their singer, Corey Taylor, said this about that in 2011:

"There are some people who would love for me to toe the party line, which is basically, 'Working with Rick Rubin was a very enriching experience.' Let me give you the fucking truth of it: Rick Rubin showed up for 45 minutes a week. Rick Rubin would then, during that 45 minutes, lay on a couch and have a mic brought in next to his face so he wouldn't have to move...The Rick Rubin of today is a thin, thin, thin shadow of the Rick Rubin that he was. He is overrated, he is overpaid, and I will never work with him again as long as I fucking live."

― 誤訳侮辱, Sunday, January 13, 2013 3:41 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is kinda awesome tbh

If Assholes Could Fly This Place Would Be An Airport, Monday, 14 January 2013 01:22 (1 year ago) Permalink

Not if you're in the band, I would imagine.

誤訳侮辱, Monday, 14 January 2013 01:23 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeah stories like that are great if you hate the musicians who had to watch their session go to shit I guess

too many encores (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 14 January 2013 01:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

Rick Rubin has been coasting on his Rubin-aura for a long-assed time. Half the people I hear that talk about how incredible he is usually have no recent examples when asked for reasons why.

(I did not like Death Magnetic, fwiw...)

NINO CARTER, Monday, 14 January 2013 01:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

New album news with Rubin producing does not surprise me. Someone liking Death Crapnetic does, though.

calstars, Monday, 14 January 2013 02:18 (1 year ago) Permalink

Not really a true successor to Never Say Die without Ward. Bill's been treated like shit

One Way Ticket on the 1277 Express (Bill Magill), Monday, 14 January 2013 03:06 (1 year ago) Permalink

Instead of a fraud like rubin, they should just see if the guy who set the dials on Master of Reality is still alive and coherent. That's all they need.

One Way Ticket on the 1277 Express (Bill Magill), Monday, 14 January 2013 03:08 (1 year ago) Permalink

If you really need a "vibe merchant" you should be playing golf and not wasting your time. I got a good name for a vibe merchant: Bill fucking Ward

One Way Ticket on the 1277 Express (Bill Magill), Monday, 14 January 2013 03:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

I got a good name for a vibe merchant: Bill fucking Ward

*massive stadium-sized applause*

sleeve, Monday, 14 January 2013 03:15 (1 year ago) Permalink

XD

some dude, Monday, 14 January 2013 03:16 (1 year ago) Permalink

you have to give them credit for finding a drummer with the same number of letters in his name as Bill, anyway

too many encores (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 14 January 2013 03:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

I hope the songs sound nothing like "Psycho Man"

NINO CARTER, Monday, 14 January 2013 03:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

Nude album nudes.

― Ned Raggett, Sunday, January 13, 2013 12:34 PM (Yesterday

Ned, it's January and you haven't revived the "Symptom Of The Universe" thread yet! OR LAST YEAR, EITHER!!

Faster than food (Myonga Vön Bontee), Monday, 14 January 2013 14:48 (1 year ago) Permalink

The chopped and screwed mixes that NEEDED to happen!

http://livefromthekitchen.bandcamp.com/album/screwing-yourself-to-live-a-chopped-slowed-tribute-to-black-sabbath

Neil S, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 10:05 (1 year ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

Was Iommi conscious that he was using the Dorian mode or did it just evolve naturally?

calstars, Friday, 16 May 2014 20:53 (4 months ago) Permalink


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