Black Sabbath: Classic or Dud?

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Heaven & Hell = just as classic as the Ozzy years.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:37 (11 years ago) Permalink

It also seems like their most Led Zep-ish album, which is not a bad thing.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:37 (11 years ago) Permalink

I can't imagine anyone saying "dud" to (classic, vintage-line-up) Black Sabbath

except for the classic, vintage lineup's last couple albums. technical ecstasy, anyone? anyone???

fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:54 (11 years ago) Permalink

I'll stand by Never Say Die.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:56 (11 years ago) Permalink

Incontrovertibly classic. Funny I was just wondering this morning who'd win in a taking sides, Zeppelin or Sabbath? Maybe that's something to ponder, because who doesn't worship Sabbath?

steve hise, Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:57 (11 years ago) Permalink

Funny I was just wondering this morning who'd win in a taking sides, Zeppelin or Sabbath?

There's a thread in the archive on this very subject.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:58 (11 years ago) Permalink

In fact there are (sorta) two:

Taking sides : Zeppelin or Sabbath

Taking Sides: Led Zeppelin Vol. 4 vs. Black Sabbath Vol.4

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Damn Ned, thanks, that was interesting.

Anyways one of the best love songs of all time is "Sweet Leaf."

steve hise, Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:07 (11 years ago) Permalink

Classic beyond classic. I can't imagine what almost any modern loud rock music (good or bad) would sound like without their influence.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:21 (11 years ago) Permalink

Black Sabbath (Warner Bros. '70) "The worst of the counterculture on a plastic platter - bullshit necromancy, drug-impaired reaction time, long solos, everything"....."Original grade: E. C-

robert christgau

elrod hendrix, Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:25 (11 years ago) Permalink

he just listed some of the reasons people LIKE them.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:29 (11 years ago) Permalink

This is like voting over and over and still being unsure your vote has been counted. I don't know anyone who would answer 'dud.'

57 7th (calstars), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:33 (11 years ago) Permalink

well, xgau.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:35 (11 years ago) Permalink

The worst of the counterculture on a plastic platter - bullshit necromancy, drug-impaired reaction time, long solos, everything"

yeah, he just made my case. if there were a meter for classic, the red part would go 0 +1 +2 BLACK SABBATH.

el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:52 (11 years ago) Permalink

Dud.

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 18:15 (11 years ago) Permalink

Wow, obviously I was the only person - ever - to not be into metal when I was younger. I don't even have enough knowledge of this subject to say classic or dud, but I will say they have never been my cup of tea. The whole aesthetic of that genre always put me off.

sleep (sleep), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 20:26 (11 years ago) Permalink

The first song that I loved was The Orb's Little Fluffy Clouds (live), and that is what made me start exploring music a bit. I didn't take interest in any form of rock until some years later when I was almost out of high school. To this day, I don't think I could really enjoy 70s/80s metal.

sleep (sleep), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 20:30 (11 years ago) Permalink

I think somebody said CLASSIC through Heaven & Hell. That is correct. Honestly the only post H&H I've ever heard is "Mob Rules". That was it for me.

My favorite all time UNDER-mentioned Sab songs: "Hand of Doom" "A National Acrobat" "The Thrill Of It All" "Junior's Eyes"

pheNAM (pheNAM), Thursday, 28 October 2004 00:13 (11 years ago) Permalink

Anyways one of the best love songs of all time is "Sweet Leaf."

-- steve hise (shistee...), October 27th, 2004.


Sweat Loaf comes ridiculously close to bettering it though.

Piers (piers), Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:44 (11 years ago) Permalink

But yes, I don't know how it could be possible to say DUD when considering the first six Sabbath albums.

OK, unless you're really not into heavy rock or metal. Is this the case for you Myonga?

Piers (piers), Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:47 (11 years ago) Permalink

Heh heh heh...GOTCHA! I was taking the piss. Completely, undeniably CLASSIC up to/including Sabotage.

[I couldn't believe that Sabbath even deserved the classic/dud treatment, because I couldn't believe that ANYONE considered 'em duds. I was gonna post an are-you-kidding? reply immediately after my "DUD" assessment. But just before I did, I read Xgau's little blurb about "drug-impaired reaction time" and thought it would be HIGH-larious to wait awhile before changing my opinion, then finally changing it FOR REAL, and then blaming my long delay on...yep, you guessed it! It might've been funnier if I'd waited a day or two, but I've always been terribly impatient.]

Anyway, again, CLASSIC through first six albums; and even the inferior Dio and Gillan lineups produced a great LP between 'em.

Finally, one of these days I'm going to finally buy Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die, just to see if they're really as bad as they're reputed.

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Thursday, 28 October 2004 06:48 (11 years ago) Permalink

I'll stand by Never Say Die.

-- Alex in NYC (vassife...), October 27th, 2004.


Finally, one of these days I'm going to finally buy Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die, just to see if they're really as bad as they're reputed.

-- Myonga Von Bontee (scottyfield...), October 28th, 2004.

Never heard Technical Ecstacy, but Never Say Die is grebt for the:

- Cover art
- Title track
- The start of 'Air Dance'

The rest is decent, listenable stuff, just not as good as what came before (and it's got synths, not that that's necessarily a bad thing).

Sasha (sgh), Thursday, 28 October 2004 06:58 (11 years ago) Permalink

Aha! Myonga - xpost - I suspected as much (well, I'll say that now). But it's got to only be a matter of time before someone answers dud for real... and I'll have to check out "Never Say Die" which slipped completely beneath my radar.

Piers (piers), Thursday, 28 October 2004 07:09 (11 years ago) Permalink

"Junior's Eyes" on Never Say Die rocks as well, dang it.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 28 October 2004 12:48 (11 years ago) Permalink

It does, but I can't get over the synth onslaught.

Sasha on a different PC, Friday, 29 October 2004 00:48 (11 years ago) Permalink

3 years pass...

Please someone tell me they know the two songs on "The Ozzman Cometh" comp: "Black Sabbath" ('70 Basement Tapes) and "War Pigs" (1970 Basement Tapes).

Both of these songs are clear evidence that BIMBLE IS MORE GOTH THAN YOU.

Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Sunday, 21 September 2008 04:19 (7 years ago) Permalink

Um there's actually more than two basement tapes on that comp (if you get the 2xcd version). Don't forget the awesome versions of "Fairies Wear Boots" and "Behind the Wall of Sleep".

I love the production of those tunes and all the alternate lyrics and verses. Total godhead.

Nate Carson, Sunday, 21 September 2008 09:08 (7 years ago) Permalink

yeah I will have to get the 2xCD version.

A goth's work is never done.

Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Sunday, 21 September 2008 09:37 (7 years ago) Permalink

is that "war pigs" the "walpurgis" version with the satan/witch themed lyrics? i love that.

REIGN IN FUDGE (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Sunday, 21 September 2008 10:08 (7 years ago) Permalink

yeah that's what it is, dude.

Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Sunday, 21 September 2008 17:14 (7 years ago) Permalink

3 months pass...

Moka, Tuesday, 23 December 2008 22:10 (7 years ago) Permalink

That...

Just... No. Ugh.

novaheat, Wednesday, 24 December 2008 01:58 (7 years ago) Permalink

<3 cindy und bert <3

cuisine of demise (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Wednesday, 24 December 2008 03:36 (7 years ago) Permalink

3 months pass...

Dehumanize is good too people.

III IV V (Bo Jackson Overdrive), Monday, 6 April 2009 20:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

heaven & hell did a dehumanizer song that was pretty good. i only knew it was dehumanizer because they put the cover to that album up on the big video screen

d20 riot tard (M@tt He1ges0n), Monday, 6 April 2009 20:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

Probably Computer God. Maybe TV Crimes.

Bill Magill, Monday, 6 April 2009 20:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

Back in 2007 Heaven and Hell played "After All (The Dead)", "Computer God", and "I"...the latter of which sounded really great. That song's held up very well.

A. Begrand, Monday, 6 April 2009 20:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

I is definitely great. I don't know if they played Computer God at the Radio City show I was at.

Bill Magill, Monday, 6 April 2009 21:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

You've got to be kidding me.

http://www.reuters.com/article/peopleNews/idUSTRE54T00420090531

Advantage: Iommi.

Bill Magill, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

The reaction on dffd and probably all the other boards was "Sharon Is A Cunt"

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

that should infact be a poll

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

poll w/ one option

鬼の手 (Edward III), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

im sure theres x-factor viewers on ILX who like her. but someone do it to find out!

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

You're it Herm, i have no idea how to do it.

Bill Magill, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

you click on where it says new poll
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/Poll/EnterPollInformationControllerServlet?boardid=41

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Instead of that, I'll just say that the vocals have always been the least important of the idea and ethos of what is "Black Sabbath". In Sabbath, it's:

mountain-moving guitar riffs and sound > thunderous but suprisingly agile rythym section >>>>>>>>> whoever the fuck is singing the lyrics the bassist wrote. Sorry Ozzy, but you now officially suck.

Bill Magill, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

If as Ozzy alleges Iommi's trying to claim "ownership" of the Sabbath name, why would he be recording and touring as Heaven and Hell?

Plunge Protection Team, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

Iommi bought the name from the others in the '90s, plus he copyrighted it in 2000. Game, set, match. Just cuz he's touring with another name doesnt mean shit, if you're implying he waived his rights.

Bill Magill, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

Deciblog has a good take:

http://decibelmagazine.com/Content.aspx?ncid=306741

A. Begrand, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 18:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

from that
Posted 6/2/2009 2:13 PM by Senile Animal

Sharon Osbourne = Cunt!

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 18:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

I hope the songs sound nothing like "Psycho Man"

NINO CARTER, Monday, 14 January 2013 03:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

Nude album nudes.

― Ned Raggett, Sunday, January 13, 2013 12:34 PM (Yesterday

Ned, it's January and you haven't revived the "Symptom Of The Universe" thread yet! OR LAST YEAR, EITHER!!

Faster than food (Myonga Vön Bontee), Monday, 14 January 2013 14:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

The chopped and screwed mixes that NEEDED to happen!

http://livefromthekitchen.bandcamp.com/album/screwing-yourself-to-live-a-chopped-slowed-tribute-to-black-sabbath

Neil S, Wednesday, 16 January 2013 10:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

Was Iommi conscious that he was using the Dorian mode or did it just evolve naturally?

calstars, Friday, 16 May 2014 20:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

10 months pass...

You know Tony Iommi is undergoing treatment for cancer right?

DavidLeeRoth, Thursday, 9 April 2015 13:20 (10 months ago) Permalink

Megalomania

calstars, Thursday, 9 April 2015 13:24 (10 months ago) Permalink

Obsessed/obsessed/obsessed/obsessed with sanity
Sting me! Suck me!

calstars, Thursday, 9 April 2015 13:31 (10 months ago) Permalink

6 months pass...

Listening to this for the first time. This record is weird and I love it.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 19 October 2015 03:23 (3 months ago) Permalink

Some of this is proto Radiohead proto Flaming Lips noise prog.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 19 October 2015 03:23 (3 months ago) Permalink

Never Say Die! is seriously great (and yes, pretty weird).

Junior's Eyes and particularly Air Dance are superb.

Birds in Hell, Monday, 19 October 2015 07:43 (3 months ago) Permalink

ozzy's vocals sound like simon le bon on the title track

please don't shampoo your eyes (stevie), Monday, 19 October 2015 09:13 (3 months ago) Permalink

not a criticism btw

please don't shampoo your eyes (stevie), Monday, 19 October 2015 09:13 (3 months ago) Permalink

Was Ozzy into Suicide? "Johnny Blaze" is very synthpunk.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 19 October 2015 18:01 (3 months ago) Permalink

https://youtu.be/ua8y9g7Upc8?t=2m41s

I like this fuzz wah guitar solo at 2:41 in "Shock Wave".

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 19 October 2015 18:23 (3 months ago) Permalink

I know Geezer always wrote the lyrics did Ozzy even come up with melodies for this album?

DavidLeeRoth, Monday, 19 October 2015 19:12 (3 months ago) Permalink

Yes. Compare to the Ozzy-less version below when Dave Walker from Savoy Brown briefly joined as singer:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ITDbIvjegg

vmajestic, Monday, 19 October 2015 19:18 (3 months ago) Permalink

Also, "Am I Going Insane" badly needs to be on this album instead of Sabotage.

vmajestic, Monday, 19 October 2015 19:20 (3 months ago) Permalink

One of ILM's greatest gifts is interesting me in listening to an album that I probably never would have otherwise. Parts of side 2 sound like King Crimson!

Retro novelty punk (Dan Peterson), Monday, 19 October 2015 22:10 (3 months ago) Permalink

BLACK SABBATH extends "The End" tour into Fall 2016

Haha, these fuckers.

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 27 October 2015 14:00 (3 months ago) Permalink

Should I go see them y/n

If y, is the likelihood of a good show better toward the beginning or end of this now-epic tour?

a silly gif of awkward larping (Sparkle Motion), Tuesday, 27 October 2015 16:45 (3 months ago) Permalink

I think Ozzy has some sort of hearing issue because he's not singing on key at all anymore. He sounded great on the last album though, but anyway my vote is no. Actually its likely your last chance to see Iommi so if you haven't already you should go.

DavidLeeRoth, Tuesday, 27 October 2015 18:30 (3 months ago) Permalink

I've never seen them. My wife, a deep level Sabbath fan, thinks it will be a waste of money.

a silly gif of awkward larping (Sparkle Motion), Tuesday, 27 October 2015 18:36 (3 months ago) Permalink

I saw them in 1999 had a great time and got to see Heaven and Hell (aka Dio Sabbath twice) and that was a treat too. One of my good friends who's a serious Ozzy defender says his singing is cooked.

DavidLeeRoth, Tuesday, 27 October 2015 18:49 (3 months ago) Permalink

I probably already did this but I recreated my "We Sail Through Endless Skies: The Quiet Black Sabbath Album" mixtape I put up on ILM years ago on Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/user/matthelgeson/playlist/6KAiYTobROEmgOk0uDMQJh

Comme Si, Kamasi (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 27 October 2015 18:52 (3 months ago) Permalink

I saw Sabbath (with Bill Ward) in 2004, and Heaven and Hell in 2007. Even though I like 13, and would like to hear them perform some of its songs live (I know they'll probably play one, if that), I'm done.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Tuesday, 27 October 2015 18:56 (3 months ago) Permalink

I heard plenty of talk of a new album guess that's not happening now? I'd be plenty excited for that. 13 surprised me.

DavidLeeRoth, Tuesday, 27 October 2015 19:12 (3 months ago) Permalink

he's not singing on key at all anymore.

Like some other singers - say, David Lee Roth, actually - singing on key has not been in the cards for decades. I've seen Ozzy solo several times, and Sabbath twice - once with Ward, once with Bordin - and every time Ozzy sounded off-key. But hey, it didn't really hurt the show, and he seemed to be having so much fun up there, what with his incontinence-disguising buckets of water and all.

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 27 October 2015 20:26 (3 months ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

Words cannot adequately express how happy I am to be able to spend a snow day tomorrow listening to these. Instrumental versions? Alternate lyrics? A "piano and slide guitar version" of "Lord of This World?" Are you fucking kidding me??

www.ultimateclassicrock.com/black-sabbath-deluxe-reissues/

Jimmywine Dyspeptic, Friday, 22 January 2016 03:07 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

Also - they'll do Volume 4, right??

Jimmywine Dyspeptic, Friday, 22 January 2016 03:09 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

It'll probably be in the next set. I wonder if the Never Say Die! one will come with a reprint of Ten Year's War?

"Damn the Taquitos" (C. Grisso/McCain), Friday, 22 January 2016 03:11 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

Would buy deluxe versions of every Sabbath album up to and including TYR, but, man am I ever stoked to spend tomorrow with Paranoid and Master of Reality. We're expecting like 14" of snow and I have no plans to leave the house. I also have a nice stash of weed I've been saving for an occasion just like this.

These 'alternate' version things are generally only fun, imo, if you have memorized every cymbal crash, every second of the original album, and, well, my dad was playing these for me in the womb, and there are few albums I know better than the first four Sabbath LPs, so I'm really excited.

I guess, according to the comments section of that article linked above, these have been available in Europe for a few years. News to me!

Jimmywine Dyspeptic, Friday, 22 January 2016 03:17 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

Very much stoked to see 'The End' tomorrow. Already reports of Ozzy not making it through the whole set list. Hope the band bring their best to Chicago tomorrow. I was listening to Sabotage this weekend and constantly thinking, 'yeah, there's now way they can hit this energy level now, nor Ozzy hit these notes.' Maybe I'll be surprised.

BlackIronPrison, Friday, 22 January 2016 03:20 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

Yeah, they've been around for a while. I don't think I need them. I bought the clamshell box with all the Ozzy albums in slimline cases a year or so ago, and that's all I need from those albums. If they've done anything to remaster Past Lives (which didn't sound great when it was on Sanctuary), I might pick that up, though. And I really want a copy of the tour-only CD they're selling with the four outtakes from 13.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Friday, 22 January 2016 03:22 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

according to a few boards, the CD was not available last night at the Omaha show, crossing my fingers for it to be a the merch table tomorrow

BlackIronPrison, Friday, 22 January 2016 03:26 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

I can do without the instrumental versions but would like to hear the alternate lyrics to Planet Caravan.

Will these be Available on Spotify etc tomorrow?

calstars, Friday, 22 January 2016 03:39 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

the alt. version of planet caravan is sick

am0n, Friday, 22 January 2016 16:59 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

Not steaming or torrenting yet that I could find

calstars, Friday, 22 January 2016 23:08 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

I wish there was some well recorded live material of the original lineup. I think Past Lives/Live at Last is pretty much it.

earlnash, Saturday, 23 January 2016 04:40 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

The four studio tracks on The End are really good. It's weird; they put all the long, slow songs on 13 like all anybody wanted from Sabbath were doomy dirges; meanwhile, the deluxe edition, and now this disc, have the more stomping, riff-heavy tracks that really show them at their best.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Sunday, 24 January 2016 01:06 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I wish there was some well recorded live material of the original lineup. I think Past Lives/Live at Last is pretty much it.

― earlnash, Friday, January 22, 2016 8:40 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sad to hear this. no good bootlegs?

lute bro (brimstead), Sunday, 24 January 2016 01:32 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

pretty sure tylerw's blog has hosted at least a few really good bootlegs in the past - there's one from the sabbath bloody sabbath era which is killer and i'm almost certain i got it from doom and gloom from the tomb

Butt here is always time for the John Mayer Trio or Sting. (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 25 January 2016 16:08 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

also i think a paranoid-era one from a show in france? also awesome

Butt here is always time for the John Mayer Trio or Sting. (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 25 January 2016 16:10 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I was wrong upthread...the deluxe editions were issued years ago. listened to the paranoid and MoR unreleased tracks...'solitude' in particular is really great. so quiet. and 'Caravan' is six minutes...extended soloing and vibing at the end.

calstars, Monday, 25 January 2016 16:20 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

It was pretty great, though not as good as Lollapalooza. "After Forever" and "Under The Sun/Every Day Comes And Goes" were surprise deep cuts, but I'd rather have heard "Hole In The Sky," "Symptom of the Universe" or even "Supernaut." It's The End tour but they'll be back in September, if one of them doesn't croak before then (I hope not!).

Fastnbulbous, Tuesday, 26 January 2016 05:36 (2 weeks ago) Permalink


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