The Doors: Classic or Dud?

The VGG organist [name beyond reach this morning: Hugh something?] would hold down adjacent low notes so that the combined overtones would deliver a heterodyning feedback-throb thing, as rhythym or (maybe: I never saw them) as note...

Dud, just because I got over LA Woman and don't care to associate with 15 year olds anymore (he said as he turned on his new Weezer album again)

But that doesn't make it any less true. Dud. Part of pop is taking things on faith, sometimes.

The image of Morrison swaying in leather pants with a microphone stand in hand is one of the more enduring Rock archetypes; it's been coppped many times since, by just about every rock band singer who wanted to be "serious" (Bono, Misfits, Creed, REM). Sure, it's riddiculous, but definitely part of the fun with this band, maybe something like the thrill of seeing Lil' Kim squeezed into her latest comstume. Dorky pop theater.

Then there is "touch me" and the like, a handful of great, catchy pop songs that revealed The Doors teenybopper roots.

Still, so many terrible songs on those albums, and yes, I have heard them all. So I'm leaning toward dud.

x0x0

1. Manzarek's hippybabble testimonials (poor Kyle MacLachlan). 2. Oliver Stone (duh). 3. Val Kilmer, who should have retired after Top Secret.

Every now and then I'm reminded of their occasional greatness, but it was very occasional. He inspired Iggy, so perhaps that's the best thing about him.

So which stamp will it be, then? Fat Jim or Skinny Jim?

Andy: Oh yes, Manzarek is one of the few people who still talks about the "The Sixties" as if it was some construct. Bleech.

Dud, on those lyrics alone. So insufferable and indulgent. Just dribble. "The Soft Parade" could be the most unintentionally hilarious song ever.

There are very few people in rock who can yell "C'mon" like Jim (hello Maggie M'Gill) - Iggy, Jagger, erm, that's it - and that spirit alone makes them instant classics. It's spine tingling when they hit the buttons right.

I can't listen to them all the time but when you put them on the stereo, OK, you gotta sit through the odd filler, but what about those classics huh? 'The End', 'LA Woman', 'Roadhouse Blues' 'Two Times', I mean if these songs can't excite you, you need to get your heart checked out.

What about 'Riders on the Storm' late at night and loud. Or 'When The Music's Over' driving through the dusk. Fuck's sake, if you like rock, you can't dislike these boys, they ARE rock, just like the Stones. If you can't get into it you need to go out this Friday, get fucked out of your brain on booze, down some mandrax, smoke some weed and hit the dancefloor in full leer, get thrown out and somehow end up in a cab with a bunch of randoms all dropping strong uppers which you stuff down your neck while screaming out the window and arrive at some dive-bar party where anything goes, play pool, smoke all night, dance on tables and laugh like tomorrow ain't coming, before leaving with a beautiful member of the opposite sex, or whatever sex turns you on that night, and get crazy under the stars, waking up with the sun in God know's where and slipping your sunglasses on to catch breakfast and conversation with your companion. Then go and listen to the Doors.

Rock in the soul - The Doors had it to the max. If you have even an ounce yourself - you can't fail to dig this shit. And that's not even taking in the phenomenal musicianship. Jesus fucking Christ, Manzarek is off the head - supreme skills, check the organ solo in 'Hyacinth House' - what?

Absolute fucking rock and roll classic. Hello.

Nevertheless, classic.

[Hey, I romanticize (Sturm und Drang Romantic) the music that I love, music that affects me viscerally, too. So I'm also laughing at myself here.]

Roger, the Stones are NOT rock - as "proven" by dave q and mark s on this thread. Best not to get into your question, tho' or we'll be here all night.

(heh, ignore me I'm just shit- stirring having just read Dr.C's excellent rant on the ABBA thread)

Rock and Roll for me is the Doors, is the Stones. If it's not them, please tell me who it is because I want to hear them. See, I can take people dissing the Doors and the Stones, that's fine, but to say they don't rock, or to question their rock and roll pedigree is plain silly. Virtually everything percieved to be 'rock and roll' is prevalent and highly potent in the phenomena that was these two bands (the Stones have sucked for over two decades now).

I would go so far as to say The Doors and the Stones are intrinsic to our understanding, reception, reaction to and interpretation of 'rock and roll'. Jagger and Morrison inarguably set the mould for the 'rock star', (though of course, they were indebted to others).

Certainly, I'm not sure that I suggested for one nanosecond that I wanted to rock in one way only. I think what I said was that the Stones and the Doors are rock and roll. Refute me.

Not that I particularly want another argument with you, but I was responding to that chap who said the Stones are not rock. I say they are. You say potato.

Finally, when you define rock as a "stupid 4 letter word," adding "there are better ways to talk about things" I'd like to ask to what ways you are referring.

What definition of rock are you alluding to here

Rock and Roll for me is the Doors, is the Stones. If it's not them, please tell me who it is because I want to hear them

This is great because you're so confident other people give a shit about "rock and roll" you actually think someone's going to go "NO NO MY FAVOURITE BAND ROCKS! I SWEAR THEY REALLY DO!". You say "rock and roll for me is the doors, is the stones" as if this automatically means they are good, as if the genre automatically means this, and most laughably as if everyone else here will think that too.

Look around, there aren't many here who wet themselves as much as you over "rock and roll" or the "rock star". Noone cares if you think the Stones and the Doors have an exclusive right to being able to "rock and roll" because noone really values that term anyway.

I'm sure you were responding to someone else, it's just so constantly tempting to take the piss out of your "rockers and ravers uniting" and "for me that's rock and roll" bullshit.

To address: "you're so confident other people give a shit about "rock and roll" you actually think someone's going to go "NO NO MY FAVOURITE BAND ROCKS! I SWEAR THEY REALLY DO!"

No, I'm the one who seems to give a shit - go all gushy and excited stroke vitriolic and then take all the shit. That I am confident people give a shit is not true - I know nothing of these boards or the regulars such as your good self. I am the paranoid new boy who gets ripped up because he gets all enthusiastic, and is considered a 'troll' (though I still have no idea what a troll is because no-one has explained).

* * *

"You say "rock and roll for me is the doors, is the stones" as if this automatically means they are good"

Did I? I thought I defined the Stones and Doors as 'good' as you put it, in relation to my perceptions of rock and roll. I think what I was saying was The Stones and the Doors do 'rock and roll', according to my terms, better than most other bands I can think of. That those terms are rigid is an incorrect assumption on your part.

- "as if the genre automatically means this" means what???

* * *

"Look around, there aren't many here who wet themselves as much as you over "rock and roll" or the "rock star". Noone cares if you think the Stones and the Doors have an exclusive right to being able to "rock and roll" because noone really values that term anyway."

So what? Why do you presume that it matter whether no-one cares? And who said anything about 'exclusive rights'? That no-one really values the term rock and roll is not for you to say Ronan. Perhaps you are right though, and I am appreciating this type of music for all the wrong reasons... What are the right ones?

In closing, may I add that you are a capable sparring partner but assume too much Ronan. That I talk bullshit is certain, but in the terms that you suggest is equally as shit-filled.

I do not buy that for one second. Or even a quarter of a second.

Your story has become tiresome. Not to mention predictable.

1: It's true - I found these boards last week. How many times do I need to say it? What kind of a closed forum is this?

2: The story is tiresome because you lot keep necessitating its repetition. Strange that it is so hard to accept.

3: The predicatability I can do nothing about.

Now I finally understand where all this anti-Rockist sentiment comes from, Mr. Ewing. You're actually incapable of loving Der Rock Und Roll, and YOU'RE JEALOUS OF THE REST OF US!! :)

When you come visit NYC and/or Philly, I promise to teach you The Ways Of Rock. Maura will help, I'm sure.

I still like that new song but I honestly reckon "the ILM Mafia" ahem and their constant Primal Scream hatred will actually lessen my enjoyment of the new album, if I even buy it. It worked with Spiritualized Let It Come Down to the point where I can't tell if (a) I like it as a response to the dislike (b)I dislike it because of the criticism or (c)I dislike it (for my own reasons) but won't admit that to myself because it would be giving in to the criticism.

the reasons for you liking things are kind of superficial/cliched even...rock is a 'marketing' term designed by record companies to sell recs (oh yes, the m- word again). Genre words can give an idea abt instrumentation used but little else, it is very reductive.

the 'rock' word has gone through a lot since then, a lot of things have happened to that. I'd say the doors had a bit of 'psychedelia' in them too, the sound was kind of strange, for a start rock bands have a bass player and the doors didn't. Saying something is 'rock' (in this case anyway) just won't do.

I was kind of pissed off abt your comments on rock vs. rap thread as well...

But the fact is that your routine, as it were, seems to be dredging up old threads about classic bands, spouting some ill-considered and dare I say juvenile rhetoric about how they are awesome, and working down from there. Maybe you should sit back for a few days and read some old threads, as well as archived FT articles to get a handle on the general tone of the discussion before you post another rant. We do tend to get fairly agressive with each other on these boards, but watching you and Ronan go at it has put me off almost as much as the grand old days of Doompatrol (use the search engine if you really want to know).

The only thing I think might count as 'trolling' is calling yourself "Roger Fascist".

Julio: can I state that to say my reasons for liking things are "kind of superficial/cliched even" is horrendous claptrap. My reasons are fundamental (to me, though clearky not to you). About that rock verses rap thread... yeah, sorry about that. I thought it was quite funny though. As for the marketing tripe, you are assuming too much. Rock and Roll is not just a musical style to me, it is an ethos. Yet you are right - continued use of the word in generic terms is reductive. I think the soul comments are related to how an individual views music on a fundamental level. That's a long story though...

Dave: Thank you for the guidance. I have been happily adding to old threads, sure, because I take an (dis)interest in these things. However I think my humour seems to have drifted way out to the leftfield on these boards and my failure to appreciate how fundamentally seriously the regulars seem to take posts here has been very much to my detriment. Ah, it's my way to be dismissive but by the same token, I love a fight. I had a look at the other threads and forums but the classics or duds is to me the most interesting - it seems to arouse such distaste in people.

Ronan: You seem to have a very big problem with me old chap. Still, the feeling is reciprocal so it's alright - I think you don't know what you're talking about too. You are too keen to wade in with the personal attacks though, you should spend less time focussing on what you think I am and more on dealing with what I am actually saying.

I also don't have a problem with revisiting classic old threads on a regular basis - it sure beats scrabbling around for the last few C/Ds or all that POO nonsense.

Wasn't Roger Fascist a Viz character, or is that irrelevant?

well, why don't you expand on it because i'd like to know. I want to get to what people's reasoning here.

''As for the marketing tripe, you are assuming too much''

It's a genre name that doesn't tell us abt the diversity within that...what's so wrong about this?

''About that rock verses rap thread... yeah, sorry about that. I thought it was quite funny though.''

I thought it was kind of misinformed and kinda 'funny'.

Goofy Thought On A Lazy Friday Afternoon: "Roadhouse Blues" Kind Of Invented Aerosmith.

Aerosmith did do quite a few mid tempo blues shuffle feels/songs like "Roadhouse Blues" like "Uncle Salty", "Same Old Song & Dance", etc...

The band you will see Tyler, Perry and Whitford all talk about in interviews was seeing the Yardbirds live in Boston. Many of those hard rock bands that came out of Detroit also point to seeing Yardbirds live as a big eye opener too.

Yeah, their Yardbirds love runs deep. But I was listening to Morrison Hotel today, and it struck me how RB sets a template for the Aerosmith Blooz numbers you mention, down to Jimbo's scatting.

really feeling "Indian Summer" rn, so dreamy and introspective, is that Krieger on bass?

That track was left over from the recording sessions for their 1st album and I think it's just Manzarek playing bass on a Fender Rhodes

This is...sort of interesting: Apparently WMG (or whoever) released a "stripped" (no strings, no horns) version of The Soft Parade for Record Store Day.

Not much info here, but this is now a thing which exists.

It came out last year as bonus tracks of the 50th Anniversary edition, though it was called "Doors only mix" and I think there were new overdubs too, I haven't heard it but I guess they are really grasping at straws w/r/t to "unreleased" material

No strings no horns sounds just about right ?

Interesting to check out like all these leftovers for a deep listener, but rare to have it be a real nugget I would figure at this point.

I kind of like listening to that American Prayer record or the two without Jimbo sometimes, as there is some really good 'music' there that might have taken step to the other side if liz' king would have still been around. Fatboy Slim found one hook in the debris.

the rework of Waiting For The Sun that whitehallunity made is soooooo good

Gave the 'Other Voices/Full Circle' another listen this morning in a mix. Casually listening to it, it hit me on how some tunes got a similar sound to "Loaded" VU. I had some old Flaming Lips, Grifters, Gallon Drunk in the same mix and the tunes fit better than you would think. The Lizard King-less Doors do kinda have sound that would fit with some 90s UK indie rock, especially hearing it side by side with an Inspiral Carpets track.

my favorite sound is the guitar tone during krieger's big solo in "when the music's over"

cancel my subscription to the resurrection > the west is the best

I think "When the Music's Over" is in every way an improvement over "The End", even though it may be the weakest song on Strange Days.

Never liked it tbh.

I like it but I prefer 'The End'.

It just kind of chugs along for 11 minutes, at least "The End" has highs and lows.

uh may i refer again to krieger's solo

Here's my ranking of Doors epics (original studio albums only, 5 minutes plus):

The Soft Parade
L. A Woman
When the Music's Over
Riders on the Storm
Light My Fire
The End

I like or love the top three and am ambivalent about the bottom three.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zzzt_r6wj8

All I can stand.

I like a lot of your picks but "LA Woman" and maybe "Riders on the Storm" are Top 10 for me

Also, "Whiskey Bar (Alabama Song)"--or is it vice-versa---I was in Alabama, wanted to get into whiskey, also bars, and it did get me into Brecht and Weill, also marxophones.

Five To One

Roadhouse Blues

Not To Touch The Earth is easily my #1

Love Me Two Times. When the Music's Over!

Nice to see their Forever Changes tribute "Wishful Sinful" get recognized.
"The Unknown Soldier" is also good, and reminds me of Simon and Garfunkel's "Fakin' It": both late 60s singles with a theatrical/dramatic interlude.

la woman brings me so much joy i can't stand it. immediate mood lift

off the top of my head the best doors songs are

la woman
five to one
when the musics over
riders on the storm
break on through

i feel like there are more but maybe not? of the bands that are not very good they are truly one of the best

is it bad that i like Peace Frog? i like Peace Frog

I thought everybody liked Peace Frog?

top 5 musical frog imo

Crazy doesn't get a look in.

Frog Chorus in the wings, croaking in vain.

mashup idea:

"(Peace) Froggy Went A-Courtin'"

LMAO

I like "Peace Frog" too. Even though there's only a few cuts from Morrison Hotel that I kept in my library ("Peace Frog" being one), it's actually an okay album. Not a great one, but mostly listenable.

Love Indian Summer and The Spy off Morrison Hotel.

I Can't See Your Face In My Mind

“The Soft Parade” is the first disco song ever, specifically the “Peppermint miniskirts” bit. Loop that over and over again and you’ll be disco-dancing fool. CHANGE MY MIND.

my issues with this band are widely documented on ILM, but i'm really enjoying listening to Weird Scenes Inside the Gold Mine, which i guess was a comp intended to speak to their jammier/proto-proggier side or something? like it has some of their big hits, but not their earlier, poppier hits besides, significantly, "Break On Through." and a lot more extended droney, arguably monotonous jams. so i think it paints a picture of the band that i can be on the same wavelength of. although lugubrious in places, and stops dead in its tracks for "You Need Meat" imho, it works better than their Greatest Hits that i dug out of my parents' collection as a teenager, which had those other songs like "Light My Fire" and "Love Me Two Times" and "People Are Strange." (i don't dislike them because they're poppier, to be clear, i've just never found them very exciting as 60s pop-rock songs!) "Hello I Love You" i think i like in my head, but it's really "Crush With Eyeliner" my brain is conjuring, mostly.

really was tempted to do another Honkin' on Bobo display name, with "Mister Mojo Risin'" ...but that's gotten so firmly attached to "Mister JoJo Rabbit" after seeing the posters for that movie at the subway entrance for six months.

"Weird Scenes" is a great comp and yeah it was specifically meant to highlight their more out/weirder stuff vs the stuff that was on "13".

You Need Meat is insanely bad, I'm pretty sure the only person who thought Ray should sing a song was Ray

"Who Scared You" is a great b-side on that record, and would have been better than a lot of the songs that made it onto Soft Parade.

oh wow this comp hits the spot

I started wondering last night: what songs from the original six Doors albums have never been extracted for a compilation? By my count, there are only eight:

I Looked At You
My Wild Love
Yes The River Knows
The Soft Parade
Indian Summer
Been Down So Long
L'America
Crawling King Snake

Two or three good ones!