Jeremy Corbyn vs Angela Eagle

i am sort of curious about the kinds of behavior which corbynites don't take part in, and which, it is implied, possess some kind of magical efficacy: as if half a million people turning up to local meetings would somehow lead to socialism in our time via some underpants-gnomic middle step

i mean, i feel like its just the over-40 version of sharing a bunch of tiresome shit on social media really

it's an old school model of politics - hard-working member selflessly grafting away on tasks that are completely fucking useless just because that's how the game is played

I guess the concern is not just that new members are less likely to be activists, but that they are setting up a parallel activist base that operates through social media and Momentum rather than the traditional CLP structure (but the local parties still select council and parliamentary candidates and representatives for the conference amongst various other things)

Circling the wagons because the next generation has rejected your failed methods.

im not with the vitriol against corbyn i keep seeing on social media but all i seem to keep seeing from him is about wanting to be someone questioning the tories in power, there is little interest in actually leading the country. obv this might be the best we can hope for right now if may isnt going to call an election, but it just speaks of the low ambition in labour right now. i know hes prob feeling quite pleased right now with the boost in members, and this new swell in support, but while corbyn makes good sense as someone to challenge the tories, what about when there is an opportunity to perhaps defeat them? i dont imagine corbyn would know what to do, or be happy in that position. supporting corbyn for that reason i think is only good for the short term.

Why do you imagine that?

The idea of trying to stop people who joined your political party, for any means or reasoning, from having a say is absolutely abhorrent. To say "we want to ignore our own supporters" really giving a strong message to labour being the opposition to THE MAN, man.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13612215_10153734318186463_8270868887075675891_n.jpg?oh=25a22ee7c28ed8fd2c612eb5a3b914a8&oe=57F56865

i think hes deleted that tweet though.

the newer one is -

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I want Labour to win power to democratise it. Focusing on "winning" alone hoards power, ignores real needs & ultimately leads to defeat</p>— Jon Lansman (@jonlansman) <a href="https://twitter.com/jonlansman/status/752105701640732672";>10 July 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

argh. https://twitter.com/jonlansman/status/752105701640732672

In the absence of a better challenger, Corbyn again. Got to be better options than Eagle, surely?

christ the replies to that tweet from Blue Labour, i can't do this to myself

Hilary Benn came out swinging - reminding him that Labour winning elections paved the way for free eye tests for the over 60s and SureStart. Boom.

New Labour - did a lot of good work for charidee, didn't like to talk about it

In the grand scheme of things, who's to say that 272 dead Iraqis per SureStart centre opened wasn't a ratio worth paying? History will judge but it's a bit early now.

Eagle's launch doesn't seem to have contained much in the way of policy direction.

This vote was a message from millions in our country who felt no one had listened to them for a very long time. For many, it was a howl of pain.

Now.. "How on earth do we bring hope to parts of our country that feel they have been neglected for years?”

“How do we protect jobs, investment and living standards?”

“How do we remain an open tolerant society?”

“And will we stay a United Kingdom?”

idk but setting out some kind of vision wouldn't go amiss.

as a former SureStart employee i would go with "not worth it"

“How do we protect jobs, investment and living standards?”

There's an awful lot of people looking for a bit more than "protection" for their shitty low-paid jobs

“How do we remain an open tolerant society?”

lol you were parachuted into your constituency and you worked with Blair and Straw

“And will we stay a United Kingdom?”

nobody sane gives a fuck about this btw

Can it really be less than a year ago that she was complaining Osborne brought the National Living Wage in too quickly?

Eagle asked why she can beat May, simply replies: "Because she's a Tory".

Seems legit.

Does Tory lite beat Tory.
Sounds like a Taste test, or a Harry Hill skit.

If the opposition to Corbyn were putting up anyone at all inspiring or with any apparent integrity even, you know, a bit ballsy and confident I'd think about it. But they're not so obvioulsy I'm going to vote for Corbyn.

Eagle asked why she can beat May, simply replies: "Because she's a Tory".

This phrase should be included in style guide books to demonstrate the importance of quotation marks.

the "Because she's a Tory" thing seems particularly unfortunate given that Eagle's whole campaign seems to boil down to "I can win and Jeremy can't" (she repeatedly refused to answer questions about policy differences between herself and Corbyn during her Peston interview, saying that it's not about policy but "leadership"), if she can't give a non-embarrassing answer to the question "how can you defeat May" then what's the point?

THis leadership that she's shown and Jeremy so clearly can't deliver. Where has she shown it?

Did anybody show the full video of her announcement. Is more of it sneaking out now?
Or was the Conservative announcement so much more important. I guess it's a lot more immediate.
BUt God would love it if nothing really could happen before the break.
Other tahn Eagle getting laughed at a lot or something.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Eagle has just dismissed John Humphreys reading out her voting record on Iraq, Chilcot, ID cards, welfare, etc as "a Corbynista meme".

Politics aside, idk how anyone can claim she has the media skills Corbyn is missing.

That much was absolutely confirmed by her clomping about in clown shoes yesterday.

She is actively worse than Liz Kendall, Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper etc. John Humphrys wasn't even playing hardball with her and it was just this car crash interview.

She has no response to the Iraq issue and she should really have worked one out by now.

The number of people making the same joke re 'Eagle attacks child' is as big a reason to reject her as any.

Haven't even been able to bear to watch her. It's so obvious she's being used by the progress mob and is gonna be dumped like an old mattress very soon.

I assume this is partially motivated by a desire to spend as little time in her constituency as possible. I grew up in Wallasey. I get it.

talking of which:

https://twitter.com/dats/status/752800373568659456

I assume this is partially motivated by a desire to spend as little time in her constituency as possible. I grew up in Wallasey. I get it.

― Michael Jones, Tuesday, July 12, 2016 10:48 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Is this new for her, has she been hands on there?
Just wondering how good she is for anything. I should pay more attention to the political thing but am living abroad anyway.
& really not getting a very good impression of her from the last couple of weeks. Has she got a lot of support.
Still not sure about structure fo coup, or what was said to the people involved. Get rid of the trot and we'll put this person in charge. & that was the motivation. Or just get rid of the trot and we'll put this placeholder there and the Tories will fund us a bit more to be the overly similar opposition perpetually?

I'm mesmerised by the moment she realises there's no one left at her campaign launch to take questions, just the panic in her eyes, that's some Guy Goma shit.

Eagle has just dismissed John Humphreys reading out her voting record on Iraq, Chilcot, ID cards, welfare, etc as "a Corbynista meme".

people are not throwing enough bricks at these cretins

that's some Guy Goma shit.

now there's the first plausible unifying candidate I've seen suggested. Other people bring me problems, Matt DC brings me solutions.

I heard somebody refer to that announcement speech as powerful this morning too. Not sure fi anybody's seen more of it than i heard live at the time. I think possibly a bit more fo it was shown on BBC News yesterday evening. So not sure what other people's impressions of things are. Like if it was a more peripheral thing in a busy schedule for a punter what would they come away with?
Is the edited version the accepted version?

Still wondering if anybody who didn't hear Boris's speech the other day heard anything of him waffling about buses, which seemed a weird thing to do in a significant speech. & there are probably other recent examples of things that you only heard at the time they were said live and weren't otherwise reported.
Or were otherwise reframed

its time for this guy to leave. ive supported him, i *love* the man, and what he stands for, i think he is brilliant as someone to have in the labour party, to critique the status quo in society and hold tories to account, but this man is not a leader, and even if he is, he cant lead his own MPs. which is yknow, kinda what you want from a political party! he has the support of members, but perhaps he is only good for a protest vote, a person to get behind to say what you do not want, but not necessarily someone who knows what he does want, or how to get it, or what it would entail.

god knows if angela eagle is any good, but corbyn might be the best we have right now, but if we have a snap election, is he really going to get labour into power? what would that even look like right now? (in fairness, not sure what a new tory govt post brexit would look like either).

*and corbyn might be the best we have right now

Always useful to have someone spout the popular narrative on ILX

I haven't lived in Wallasey since '93, so she was only my MP for about a year. There was a link on one of the other threads regarding her path to selection, how Frank Field was involved in undermining the hard-left Labour candidate Lol Duffy in '87 (I remember the local freesheet going to town on the "Marxist"), who lost to Lynda Chalker by <300 votes, and was prevented from standing again (leading to the suspension of the Wallasey CLP, who supported him overwhelmingly) in '92. Eagle was effectively imposed on the constituency. I have no idea of how she is regarded locally, single airborne brick aside.

yeah i know its lame, im just repeating the usual spiel, and ive resisted it so far, after seeing the glee of anti corybyn so called labour supporters on social media, but im just starting to worry what will happen if we have an election. is everyone in this thread confident about a) a labour win b) corbyn leading the party after that point?

Eagle won't win power either. They've had nine months to plot this and the failure of organisation is genuinely astonishing even for this bunch of morons. If there was some guiding intelligence behind it you could imagine putting up Eagle as the stalking horse, and subsequently requiring a 'stop Eagle' candidate in addition to a 'stop Corbyn' one when she proves hopelessly incapable, might be engineered to induce the NEC to keep Corbyn off the ballot and have a proper contest but it's virtually inconceivable they are organised enough to plan something like that.

The thread title is a specific choice, but by all means, let the imagination run wild - who would you be confident about a labour win under?

I'll note you've not answered me asking about where you get "what about when there is an opportunity to perhaps defeat them? i dont imagine corbyn would know what to do, or be happy in that position. supporting corbyn for that reason i think is only good for the short term."

(I ask because there's an obvious subtext, which I don't know if you're implying or I'm inferring, of "can we trust him to kiss Murdoch's ring?")

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jeremy-gilbert/facing-facts-progressive-strategy-for-2020

this should be compulsory reading

If I already read it on the main thread can I get a note?

i take it you completely disagree with the argument, or else why wank on about "winning"?

Is that to me, NV? I don't believe I have - I'm very much in the "A victory by any means wouldn't be worth it"

i apologise for misreading you then Andrew, i need to turn down my class paranoia at this stage in the game

yes - this is bonkers in exactly the ways you say.

btw this thread doesn't come up on New Answers for me - is this a general problem?

the situation above re the Blairites' reaction makes me feel about them the way that ILX poster 'conrad' does.

Surely just about any other political figure would at least try to clear up what caused the coup and the following campaign. Isn't that almost the definition of damage limitation.

So, since it has already been said here before the results of the election came through that there would be less sympathy for Corbyn if there were further attempts to unseat him, that idea must be more widespread than this list.
I really can't see a lack of action along those lines, to try to make sure his status is more stable at least, can be seen as a good thing.
Unless it is as has been suggested by Noodle Vague that the negative forces should be left to out themselves. But would everybody see them as negative forces anyway?
From what I'm seeing the idea that Labour is a coalition of a lot of different leftish perspectives is going to continually present problems in itself. But having several smaller parties trying to establish themselves in the wake of the party would presumably just leave things way too open for the Tories to become almost a one party state at least for long enough to take things even further into the shit.

Metaphorically speaking I'm reminded of the joke about the religious nut stuck in a flood who turns away the rescue boat because he's waiting for God to send him the sign he's been assured of.
Or to put taht more clearly , most people would think that if one was in a position of leadership one would deal with the element that was causing one trouble instead of just waiting for it to clear itself up. & the act of not clearing it up when it needs to be might just be seen as becoming the problem that needs to be dealt with. Something about cybernetically guiding a coalition of people who don't necessarily get along together and are likely to be infighting to some degree into something that does at least function together as a vehicle of good being good leadership which is the role that JC is supposed to be in. & that cybernetic guidance possibly taking the shape of reprimanding or severely limiting the power of the element that is currently out of balance and therefore rocking the boat etc.

That makes sense.

It almost feels like something 'conrad' would say.

So, I have a constituency party meeting on Wednesday. Given we voted to support Smith, should I demand the resignation of the Smith supporting office-holders? The danger would be that they might expect me to do something...

Exterminate All The Brutes imo

This is why the Tories are so much better at grabbing power. Fucking Rees-Mogg staunchly supported four people in the space of as many weeks and nobody's calling for his resignation

tbf to the lad that's just about supporting A.N. Tory, Corbyn's problem is the Tories who will never support him, electable or not

it was fun watching a seething heidi alexander on the politics show, she has no answer for "if the PLP were concerned about Corbyn bringing the party too far too the left, why were basically Smith's domestic policies identical?"

She is another one trying to call the terms of defeat without any leverage. Like why on earth would Corbyn let the PLP fill his shadow cabinet with his enemies as a compromise? He might as well resigned back in april if he was going to immediately capitulate after another leadership victory.

there's been a notable absence of contrition and bridge-building so far hasn't there? i think Corbyn can live with that for a few days, allow the worst culprits to show everybody what they are. the centrists - cough - have to come to him now, unless they're genuinely prepared to split.

Meanwhile conference has decided not to debate Brexit.

Chuka took a break from making tough on immigrants speeches to make some conciliatory noises earlier, but he definitely has a touch of the Rees-Mogg about him. I'd love to hear what McDonnell is saying behind closed doors about the no-compromise crew's offer of selecting their shadow cabinet.

That Liz Carr speech at the conference about the real effects of austerity on the disabled is telling it like it is.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/actress-liz-carr-stuns-audience-8911590

That's some speech

I wonder how many present who were clapping the speech were cowardly abstainers who aided and abetted the tories in bringing in the welfare bill.

Andy Burnham is beside her in the photo. I like him. I like the way that throughout the Corbyn era, he has knuckled down and got on with working for Corbyn, whether he entirely agrees with him or not, pausing only occasionally to make quite polite appeals for other people to do the same.

Jeremy Corbyn is doing well !

he needs to do better

http://www.primaryteaching.co.uk/prodimg/H69_1_Zoom.jpg

lol fair

best be safe and order more of the ones with the red star

His own work is good but he distracts others.

Untapped potential from the rosy-cheeked whippersnapper.

The net tightens around Stevolende

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/19/angela-eagle-abusive-homophobic-messages-labour-members

Can you stop using my name please, I find you creepy enough already.

Had hoped we'd seen the last of Eagle after that manipulative shite she pulled earlier this year. Had hoped people would have wised up to her after that. Obviously some people didn't.

...

in other news, Mark Sandell has been expelled from Labour along with 15 other members of Brighton and Hove CLP. the CLP is going to be split in 3:

http://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2016/10/19/suspended-labour-official-expelled-as-brighton-and-hove-party-faces-break-up/

Can you stop using my name please, I find you creepy enough already.

Had hoped we'd seen the last of Eagle after that manipulative shite she pulled earlier this year. Had hoped people would have wised up to her after that. Obviously some people didn't.

― Stevolende, Wednesday, October 19, 2016 9:24 AM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sweep sweep

Stevo you do realise that a guy has actually admitted to sending her a death threat, right?

Corbyn more Baldrick than May, sez Baldrick

@Tony_Robinson
To those tweeting me about 'MSM', Corbyn faces no more hostile media than every Lab leader in history. He's just inept at dealing with it

for a bloke who presents history programmes that's one v short memory right there

liquidate all these fucking awful New Labour luvvies imo

is complaining about the "MSM" a thing now?

always and #4evah

a bunch of otherwise sensible leftist friends of mine talk a lot about conspiracies where I would be reluctant to use that word but there's no reason they're not broadly correct