Is this anti-semitism?

"you know how much of a fan of the jewish people i am...
*pulls strange orange penis out, brandishes it to camera*
... i'm circumcised! you can't BEAT THAT for jewish."

Polish soccer fans torch 'Jewish' effigies, fly banner calling for burning of Jews

this is nuts. & this article says that this happens in the UK also, with Tottenham Hotspur ? "just a bit of fun"? awful.

This is Polish 4th division football, iirc, so not massively high-profile but there's a similar issue with Cracovia and Wisla Krakow - first division clubs. Wisla fans spray swastikas on the walls of Cracovia areas or the other way round.

Tottenham (and Ajax Amsterdam) are both clubs with traditional Jewish support but there's no burning of effigies. Chelsea fans have famously always hissed at Spurs supporters (to replicate the sound of gas chambers) but this has been stamped out to some degree (Chelsea now have a nominally Jewish owner).

wow, I had no idea about any of this. well, I saw the story about the racist Chelsea fans on the Paris metro last year, but I figured that was just "common folks" racism, not that it was intertwined with fandom of that team.

Chelsea have always had a lot of plain, regular racists following them as well - most clubs do tbf but they, along with West Ham and Millwall, tend to be the most high-profile offenders from the London clubs.

The line between 'genuine' antisemitism and grotesque pantomime antisemitism from supporters trying to get a rise out of Spurs / Ajax fans is difficult to gauge though. Antisemitic songs become part of the lore of some clubs in a way that's at least partially divorced from the idea of actual Jewish fans in the opposing stands.

apparently beetbort has a writer whose beat is to defend the polish right against charges of antisemitism (while attacking other jewish writers)

http://www.breitbart.com/author/matthew-tyrmand/

he's jewish, too. idk what to make of it

gotta love when "you're the real racist" drops

https://twitter.com/MatthewTyrmand/status/781165362192658433

Yes, he's an oddball. His dad was quite a famous Polish author.

He's an American 'libertarian' weirdly committed to defending the most socially invasive, authoritarian Polish government in a generation.

Idk how you go from being a self-declared libertarian to a paid defender of a government looking to criminalise child rape victims getting abortions and firmly opposed to free trade but anti-communism creates strange bedfellows.

https://twitter.com/lpolgreen/status/784370317380554753

NYT reporter Lydia Polgreen comments, on a TPM thread about Trumpism cementing Jewish ties to the Democratic party

"This is an important thread. At the same time I know some Zionist American Jews who are v much supporting Trump."

This really got my back up for some reason. The sense that there are "the good ones" and as opposed to them "the Zionists" whose loyalties are always suspect.

100%

if anything trump is not particularly strong on israel so orthodox jewish support for him is likely more related to partisan affiliation and social conservatism than pure zionism which would probably lead them more to clinton.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ezjoynetwork.devilhunter&hl=en

Check the screenshot. Star of David as creepy horror talisman or something? Was going to report this to google play store, but wanted to gauge the reaction here.

Eh idk

The devils came in, occupied the village and drove all the villagers out of the country. It's time that all of the survived villagers take weapons to fight with the devils.

Please help to Kill all of the devils and get their home back.

that + the graphics = half an eyebrow raise at least

I got some anti-semitic hate messages on Facebook! I've never had that before because, well, I'm not Jewish. I didn't even notice at the time - they were from February and I was homeless at the time. Just stuff calling me a 'zionazi' and telling me to 'fuck off, jew' and so on. The account is gone now. I can only guess it's from posting on Labour Party pages, insisting that there IS a problem with anti-semitism on the Left (though of a different order and type from the anti-semitism on the Right).

Does anyone ever drill down into those commenters to see how many of them are trolling, right-wing FUD merchants?

I would have done, but he deleted his account. He had an Italian name, for whatever that means.

you know i don't want to read too much into stuff like that since my sample size is, like, three, but _all_ the crazy openly anti-semitic people i've run across on the net have been italians. i think it's a local variety of crazy they have there.

It might just be one very dedicated Italian anti-Semite.

it is

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/26/13418304/alex-jones-jewish-mafia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vST61W4bGm8

it'll certainly sound that way to his nazi supporters but i'm not sure that every insinuation of a sinister controlling elite cabal is necessarily an antisemitic one. is every nut who believes in the illuminati, or free masons, or the bilderberg conspiracy, always really talking about jews? nb that i think it's an irresponsible rhetorical tact and could very well inflame the passions of antisemites. i'm just not sure the text itself rises to that level.

http://religiondispatches.org/reason-to-worry-a-scholar-of-anti-semitism-reflects-on-the-2016-election/

mordy this is a phenomenon i think about a lot and have probably written several strained posts and then deleted them -- basically, are we seeing some kind of 'antisemitism w/o jews' and how did that happen?

the alex jones/zerohedge paranoid crowd have successfully pushed the boogeyman 'globalist' to the forefront as the chief enemy of the people. it's really hard to tell who's cynical and who's truly duped.

how many people are there who have begun to look at the world in an essentially, classically antisemitic way, but because of how coded and "updated" that discourse is, it would never even occur to them that that's the nub of their beliefs?

conflating alex jones and zerohedge feels... weird?

zerohedge is pretty disgusting but maybe not exactly as disgusting as alex jones

fanbase is identical afaict

I find this "antisemitism w/o Jews" theory a little uncomfortable, as though Jews are so inextricable from paranoid conspiracy theories that their presence is always implied. I mean there have also been antisemitic associations of Jews with capitalism, and also with anticommunism -- does that mean that anticapitalism and anticommunism are both antisemitic discourses at heart?

for me the question is how it's being received. if white supremacists are getting "jew" then you have to deal w/ that even if the guy designing the commercial made sure not to mention that soros just happens to be...

antisemitism w/o Jews? Sounds like Eastern Europe.

Brought up in some interview I came across recently, but when Shakespeare and Marlow wrote "The Merchant of Venice" and "The Jew of Malta," respectively, both in the late 1500s, there were essentially no Jews in England at all, having been formally expelled in 1290 or something.

I guess that the idea that there is a small group of people actually plotting and consciously controlling things (as opposed to big abstract social forces) is what distinguishes anti-semitic forms of anticapitalism and anticommunism from not anti-semitic forms of anticapitalism and anticommunism?

i think hurting raises a good pt tho - if that small group are all secret lizard people, and all your listeners agree that what we're talking about are lizard people, are we really still talking about jews?

To believe deeply and truly in the globalist conspiracy entails a receptivity to all similar ideas, because that belief is implanted and sustained through impressions and emotions, not through evidence or facts. The global Jewish conspiracy of bankers and media is nearly indistinguishable from the globalist conspiracy theories. It follows that the same brains would provide fertile grounds for either or both theories. Even if one predominates over the other, they are likely to coexist.

that seems to make sense - people who subscribe to this conspiracy theorist worldview are by definition not very discriminating or rational about what they believe, it seems unlikely that they would swallow all of the not-explicity-anti-semitic mad theories, but suddenly become sceptical and cautious when they come across anti-semitic mad theories

yeah xp I mean I think the idea of a global conspiracy can manifest itself in many forms, can be shapeshifting and, unsurprisingly, often incoherent. So in some of the more paranoid literature there is a blurring btw rothschilds, masons, lizard people, whatever the group/force that is the powerful world overlord perfectly manipulating the conditions of our existence.

Mazel Tov Cocktails... anti semetic freudian slip?

i think more likely just a dumb person

if white supremacists are getting "jew" then you have to deal w/ that

Yeah

let me sketch out a scene:

person steadily imbibes "socialism of fools" analyses where, variously, bilderbergs, goldman sachs, international finance, the central banking system, self-dealing urban elites, consensus washington, cosmopolitans, interventionists/neoconservatives and or the vague mass of diplomats/NGO ivy league types and well-connected party lawyers are behind it tall. exposing them and breaking their lamprey-like grip on the world is vital.

person basically says as much to you about what's really going on and who's really pulling the strings

and what do you say back? i dunno buddy, that all sounds pretty antisemitic, don't you know what you sound like? where are you getting this shit?

and their reply to you is how dare you, this isn't about religion, you read oppression into everything, i love israel (maybe) and wish the US/UK/wherev was more like it, you liberals look at someone proud and fed up and clear-eyed and see a nazi

and you're left wondering, ok do i take that at face value? or is this an antisemite who's getting off on lying to me?

compartmentalization is a hell of a drug

Conspiracy theories can form a monological belief system: A self-sustaining worldview comprised of a network of mutually supportive beliefs. The present research shows that even mutually incompatible conspiracy theories are positively correlated in endorsement. In Study 1 (n = 137), the more participants believed that Princess Diana faked her own death, the more they believed that she was murdered. In Study 2 (n = 102), the more participants believed that Osama Bin Laden was already dead when U.S. special forces raided his compound in Pakistan, the more they believed he is still alive. Hierarchical regression models showed that mutually incompatible conspiracy theories are positively associated because both are associated with the view that the authorities are engaged in a cover-up (Study 2). The monological nature of conspiracy belief appears to be driven not by conspiracy theories directly supporting one another but by broader beliefs supporting conspiracy theories in general.

http://spp.sagepub.com/content/3/6/767.abstract

wow

alex jones is actually antisemitic this isn't hard. zerohedge is... not?

(i ran a search on globalist on the latter and saw a series of guest posts by some dude from 4lt-m4rket.com which seem pretty wild, but outside of those, which are relatively few compared to the sheer volume of zh i don't think it gets pushed much at all?)

https://jewishphilosophyplace.wordpress.com/2016/11/09/trump-swastikas-philly/

obviously a lot of ppl are hurting today but i am so fucking angry at these older white jewish males - and i know quite a few of them - who voted for trump because they thought idk that ivanka would protect us. we elected a man who ran on a campaign of blaming others - primarily Muslims and Latinos but as things get worse, and they will, they will need new people to blame, and Jews have always been at the center of the white supremacist cosmology. we're the ones who control the money, who control the media, who have tricked the west into letting all these brown ppl in so that we can destroy white culture. they think that we'll be spared because ivanka is a convert. they are selfish and they are stupid and honestly i've never been as scared in my life for my family + children. i may have mentioned this on the other thread but i'm getting passports for my kids next week. my parents are serendipitously looking at homes right now in israel. a few minutes ago i could not stop crying because i feel like in one day we've given away so much and for nothing. and i know this is in the anti-semitism thread but any one who is going through this now no matter what minority group they belong to my heart goes out to you bc in you've borne the brunt of most of this but it looks like no one is getting out alive.

https://jewishphilosophyplace.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/trump-swastia.jpg

i'm not willing to be one of the idiot jews who hung out in europe through 1934 and 35 and 36 and 37 and 38 because it could never happen here

so Mordy, at what point do we bail on this shit? My wife is ready to get out of the country right now, but I'm more inclined to want to move to a more liberal state. I really don't know what the appropriate course of action is.

I think if they start bombing/burning synagogues/Jewish schools that would be a pretty strong impetus for me.