he's right that people reacting negatively to this piece bc "it's a classic record!" are wrong but idk that seems an obvious point that is now a 10 minute read
― who is extremely unqualified to review this pop album (BradNelson), Monday, 6 June 2016 15:13 (seven years ago) link
as opposed to the 60-minute read of the past week in this thread
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Monday, 6 June 2016 15:13 (seven years ago) link
I enjoyed those 10 minutes?
― it's getting ott in here / so take off all your clothes (stevie), Monday, 6 June 2016 15:14 (seven years ago) link
well my issues were about the form it took rather than dude's opinion on the record
― who is extremely unqualified to review this pop album (BradNelson), Monday, 6 June 2016 15:15 (seven years ago) link
but i really enjoyed the violent femmes tangent
― who is extremely unqualified to review this pop album (BradNelson), Monday, 6 June 2016 15:16 (seven years ago) link
Each of those 60 minutes started a band.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 6 June 2016 15:17 (seven years ago) link
sfj's prose style has evolved into rock critic mark kozelek lately and it especially bugs me here
― who is extremely unqualified to review this pop album (BradNelson), Monday, 6 June 2016 15:18 (seven years ago) link
I genuinely don't understand why editors don't routinely ask themselves, if not during line edits then during commissioning, "will this piece make my writer and/or publication look bad unnecessarily? if so, what can I do to prevent or at least mitigate that?"
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Monday, 6 June 2016 15:21 (seven years ago) link
feel like it's more that editors are routinely asking themselves "will this piece get people all riled up?" and if the answer is yes, hit publish!
― tylerw, Monday, 6 June 2016 15:23 (seven years ago) link
so much of that piece seemed intended to make people cry millennial
― who is extremely unqualified to review this pop album (BradNelson), Monday, 6 June 2016 15:24 (seven years ago) link
There's a short-termism at work at bad outlets, where "will we look bad?" is subservient to "will this get lots of clicks and go viral?". Also this piece is not really going to hurt MTV's brand. Also there is no real investment beyond time when clicking on a weblink - it's not like someone's goung to say, "I got burned there, never going to pay to read something like that again". xps
― it's getting ott in here / so take off all your clothes (stevie), Monday, 6 June 2016 15:25 (seven years ago) link
I understand how it works. What I don't understand is how little cognitive dissonance people register in simultaneously thinking "I want to support/promote/mentor this writer so they can be successful" and "I am either actively undermining this writer or undermining them via inaction."
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Monday, 6 June 2016 15:41 (seven years ago) link
I am guessing those undertaking the latter either aren't really interested in the former or are kind of dense.
― it's getting ott in here / so take off all your clothes (stevie), Monday, 6 June 2016 15:42 (seven years ago) link
when MTV publishes a "scathing" takedown of an artist that it'll need to curry favor with come vma booking time then maybe it'll have a point beyond "lol we got the olds to rageclick on a piece about another bunch of olds, guess that saved us from the traffic ax for another month"
(note that two weeks ago all the salty tweets that an MTV account posted about Ciara were deleted once she complained. Ciara doesn't exactly have Beyoncé-level power on an individual level but pissing her off could have wider reverberations. and those were tweets, ffs!)
― maura, Monday, 6 June 2016 15:54 (seven years ago) link
I think the first Violent Femmes lp was pretty popular over here. certainly seemed to be something taht a lot of people on the camp 5 years ago could agree on. I think that included a lot of Brits too. JUst think it was a bit of a slightly alternative lp that wasn't overly dangerous so appealed to a wide amount of people. I don't remember too much free jazz in the sound yet, do think that hearing the Modern lovers after them I could hear a lot of ML influence. & VF always reminded me of the MLs once I'd heard them.
Slightly surprised to hear that Mick harvey was familiar enough with their work to do impromptu sets of their songs though.
― Stevolende, Monday, 6 June 2016 16:59 (seven years ago) link
The editor who commissioned the De La piece was bad at her last job, and based on this evidence, she hasn't gotten any better now that she's transitioned to MTV. (Basically, if you're good already, she won't make your piece any worse, but if you're a writer who needs help, you're out of luck.) There might at least be an additional layer of copy editing at MTV, though, because while the De La piece was poorly reasoned and poorly written, it was at least missing the spelling and punctuation errors that were such a hallmark of The Pitch.
― Don Van Gorp, midwest regional VP, marketing (誤訳侮辱), Monday, 6 June 2016 17:19 (seven years ago) link
Obviously a lot has likely changed since then but back when MTV Hive was active there was definitely both line and copy editing in place.
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Monday, 6 June 2016 18:38 (seven years ago) link
Music and cultural "taste" is backed up with correct arguments and facts, not "digging".
― Banaka™ (banaka)
― ejemplo (crüt), Monday, 6 June 2016 18:38 (seven years ago) link
"feel like it's more that editors are routinely asking themselves "will this piece get people all riled up?" and if the answer is yes, hit publish!"
wait, this is just dawning on you...
― scott seward, Monday, 6 June 2016 18:48 (seven years ago) link
it just seems, on the balance, bad that every time a piece critical of an artist or album comes out, it's likely to provoke a huge cross-media shitstorm.
(much of the non-music-critic response to this piece wasn't about the writing or the editing, it was about the scandal and outrage that a person could dislike an album not designated for dislike.)
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Monday, 6 June 2016 18:53 (seven years ago) link
No
― tylerw, Monday, 6 June 2016 18:56 (seven years ago) link
xp
― tylerw, Monday, 6 June 2016 18:57 (seven years ago) link
k
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Monday, 6 June 2016 18:57 (seven years ago) link
ha, was responding to scott's delightful "this is just now dawning on you" comment.
― tylerw, Monday, 6 June 2016 18:59 (seven years ago) link
"We were years away from hip-hop authenticity wars."
dude lived in new york. in the 80's.
"Rap fans were still trying to get people to stop making fun of rap,"
in new york. in the 80's!
"I was generally in favor of rap becoming as user-unfriendly as the work of downtown types like Christian Marclay, who seemed to be referenced every time somebody had to write about rap."
it's true, every time you read about rap in the 80's you had to read about christian marclay. ??????????????????
"Everything rap or hip-hop (the name was still a toss-up at stores) was of interest to me."
It's true, I was there too. Nobody knew what to call rap in record stores in new york. some people called it the wicketty diggity doo.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 June 2016 19:00 (seven years ago) link
i don't remember anyone thinking de la soul were weird or fucked up back then. teenagers loved them. and not because they were fucked up.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 June 2016 19:04 (seven years ago) link
this
― fact checking cuz, Monday, 6 June 2016 19:04 (seven years ago) link
its like lame writing gave birth to even more lame writing. thanks, MTV! and thanks for the endless coverage of the madchester scene on 120 minutes. we had to go directly from the mission u.k. years to the ned's atomic dust bin years? sheesh....
― scott seward, Monday, 6 June 2016 19:06 (seven years ago) link
De La were interviewed about the piece and gave some good answers (they're less riled up about it than everybody else). Also the interview touches on the Kendrick/Chance comparisons mentioned upthread. Good read
http://observer.com/2016/06/buffoon-mind-state-de-la-soul-and-the-killing-of-sacred-cows/
― Evan R, Monday, 6 June 2016 19:14 (seven years ago) link
First album since 2004, of course they'd be circumspect
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 6 June 2016 19:34 (seven years ago) link
we had to go directly from the mission u.k. years to the ned's atomic dust bin years?
Admittedly I am biased.
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 6 June 2016 19:50 (seven years ago) link
one of the cool things about living in the (daisy age) future is that the observer response piece includes a youtube of the whole 3 feet high album so who gives a fuck about bad or badly written reviews as long as they link your name right.
― De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Monday, 6 June 2016 19:55 (seven years ago) link
you had a big poster of dave kendall on your wall when you were studying maths at uni, admit it, ned.
x-post
― scott seward, Monday, 6 June 2016 19:56 (seven years ago) link
Horrible thought, what do you take me for. 'Studying maths' indeed.
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 6 June 2016 20:08 (seven years ago) link
my number one piece of advice for aspiring music writers is probably "take calculus, you'll regret not doing so"
― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Monday, 6 June 2016 20:18 (seven years ago) link
*2gether voice* I know my calculus
― who is extremely unqualified to review this pop album (BradNelson), Monday, 6 June 2016 20:25 (seven years ago) link
i feel like all the cultural baggage being dredged up over this piece is secondary to the main lesson, which is that if you write with contempt for your audience and your subject, you're probably gonna get that contempt returned back in your direction by one or the other. if david was naive about anything, it's his weird surprise about this piece causing such a predictable shitstorm.
― Dierks Bentley's Holistic Detective Agency (some dude), Monday, 6 June 2016 20:59 (seven years ago) link
agreed.
― De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Monday, 6 June 2016 21:03 (seven years ago) link
i think 95% of the racial, generational, musical and critical arguments are all distractions from the basic fact that jessica didn't do her job and now one of her writers is getting eaten alive on the internet
― queen elseq of ærendelle (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, 6 June 2016 21:04 (seven years ago) link
yup
― Dierks Bentley's Holistic Detective Agency (some dude), Monday, 6 June 2016 21:08 (seven years ago) link
Pretty funny to watch the writer do the "lol, fuck you old white people" dance on Twitter, meanwhile the editor who threw him to the wolves is a middle-aged white mom.
― Don Van Gorp, midwest regional VP, marketing (誤訳侮辱), Monday, 6 June 2016 21:27 (seven years ago) link
Again, those distinctions are all distractions from the actual point tho
― queen elseq of ærendelle (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, 6 June 2016 21:35 (seven years ago) link
Well, some of us have been pointing out her incompetence for fucking years.
― Don Van Gorp, midwest regional VP, marketing (誤訳侮辱), Monday, 6 June 2016 21:37 (seven years ago) link
the basic fact that jessica didn't do her job
A MUSIC CRITIC IN 2016 LISTENS TO DE LA SOUL’S CLASSIC 1989 DEBUT ALBUM FOR THE FIRST TIME. HE'S REALLY WRONG
― De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Monday, 6 June 2016 21:37 (seven years ago) link
Well, some of us have been pointing out her incompetence for fucking years. --Don Van Gorp, midwest regional VP, marketing (誤訳侮辱)
Come on, fam.
Jessica is still hands down one of the best music writers of our generation,I just don't particularly agree with her editing strategy
― queen elseq of ærendelle (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, 6 June 2016 21:50 (seven years ago) link
oh wait, we're talking about jessica hopper here? yeah, in that case i'll take whiney's side.
― De La Soul is no Major Lazer (ulysses), Monday, 6 June 2016 21:54 (seven years ago) link
the editor who threw him to the wolves is a middle-aged white mom
so what? what does that have to do with anything?
― fact checking cuz, Monday, 6 June 2016 22:01 (seven years ago) link
last week i watched MTV for the first time in years. it was nothing but ghost reality shows.
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 6 June 2016 22:10 (seven years ago) link
I've never liked her writing. I do admire her groundbreaking work on the "I'm a publicist and a journalist!" hustle, which has paid big dividends for a bunch of other folks since.
― Don Van Gorp, midwest regional VP, marketing (誤訳侮辱), Monday, 6 June 2016 22:16 (seven years ago) link
Jessica is still hands down one of the best music writers of our generation
ROFL you're joking
― Wimmels, Tuesday, 7 June 2016 01:11 (seven years ago) link