Swans: Classic or Dud?

Here's the statement ppl are talking about:

"Clearly Larkin Grimm is not well. Mental illness does not equate with dishonesty. However, in Grimm’s case, both are active to the detriment of my colleague and former life partner, Thomas Ellis’s reputation and career. I have worked with Thomas for years now, and though our personal relationship did not work, I know him well and deeply and Grimm’s public depictions of him are errant and libelius. I continue to work with Thomas professionally and I stand with him in this matter. Larkin Grimm has admitted in writing that, when off her medication, she lacks compassion and enjoys playing tricks on people. During her short tenure with Heroes Are Gang Leaders, she wove a tapestry of lies about her past marriage, false suicide attempts, and a number of other stories that she carefully tailored to the particular listener in order to garner their sympathy and rely on their decency to keep her confidences private. As her statements became bolder and more difficult to fathom, members of HAGL began discussing them and quickly discovered that Larkin Grimm is a very calculating liar. When she feared her place in the band was in jeopardy, she fabricated sexual harassment allegations against the main three band members who saw through her lies and wanted her out. Later she addressed the entire group, promising no more lies and that she was trying to be a better person--that she felt that the person she was when she was playing was the better person that she strived to be in life. Unfortunately, Grimm has not been successful in that aim. She went on to publically conflate an unfortunate incident within my then broken relationship with Thomas Ellis--an incident she uses lies to describe--with a rape allegation she made against producer Michael Gira from 2008, two completely unrelated stories beyond Grimm’s opportunistic linking in order to publicise her new album.

-Margaret Morris of Heroes Are Gang Leaders"

woah

That funny, because I was just going through Heroes Are Gang Leaders videos just to get an idea of their sound and I was like "Damn, I don't see Larkin Grimm anywhere in here - did she make THAT up?"

Walking back the part where I say it's funny because obviously this whole thing is unfunny.

ty

wanna clarify that regardless of how this turns out, Gira's initial statement was reprehensible, and the behavior of some male posters in this thread has been awful throughout

and yes, I will believe the victim first next time, too

In my perfect world, the standard of proof required for public opinion to view a woman (or anyone) as 'untrustworthy' is more demanding than the standard of proof to view a man as 'probably a rapist' (& the two are not, it should go without saying, mutually exclusive -- as though there did not exist a well-documented correlation between mental illness & victimization, esp. sexual assault), but I must admit that that statement goes a long way towards establishing the former.

It's certainly risky to come to either conclusion until there is sufficient evidence. It's very weird to me to take any side right off the bat, but of course the accusation should always be taken very seriously.

If you read comments to that Morris post it seems like there are people like Gira's ex objecting to media outlets even reporting on this story and not giving sufficient deference to Gira's side.

Not re-joining this, just wanted to reach back out to Robbie: Sorry to be defensive. Lots of stuff being thrown around here. I must confess to not knowing about the Nickelback story -- I thought you were implying that the only reason I was weighing in here was because I'm a SWANS fan (which is true). Don't know anything about a similar allegation made against the Nickelback guy. Ugh. Anyway, no offense taken, and none implied. Carry on everyone. This is awful, ugly business.

Here's hoping the thread can get back to its true purpose: Speculative fan fiction about Chad Kroger raping Avril Lavigne

Sleeve, I wouldn't really walk anything back based on the MM statement either. I read it earlier, decided it didn't really shed much light one way or the other and could be impeached pretty easily in any number of ways (ex-wife of band leader accuses woman of mental illness). There are other statements by HAGL members also questioning Larkin that haven't shown up here. I don't see statements being the answer.

One thing I'd probably focus on is the difference between "believe" and "take seriously." The latter makes a lot of sense to me. The former doesn't.

the standard of proof required for public opinion to view a woman (or anyone) as 'untrustworthy' is more demanding than the standard of proof to view a man as 'probably a rapist'

― bernard snowy, Friday, March 4, 2016 7:23 AM (1 hour ago)

i get where you're coming from, and i know it's a good place, but i just can't. no.

lot of liars out there, and a lot of rapists, too. no need to take it any further than that.

Not re-joining this, just wanted to reach back out to Robbie: Sorry to be defensive. Lots of stuff being thrown around here. I must confess to not knowing about the Nickelback story -- I thought you were implying that the only reason I was weighing in here was because I'm a SWANS fan (which is true). Don't know anything about a similar allegation made against the Nickelback guy. Ugh. Anyway, no offense taken, and none implied. Carry on everyone. This is awful, ugly business.

― Alex in NYC, Friday, March 4, 2016 10:07 AM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no no no god ugh sorry i didn't mean to suggest that was true, i just didn't mean it as a joke

xp - sorry, left off bernard's "in my perfect world," at the beginning there

Honestly, in this thread context, I think "they are not mutually exclusive" was the more important of the qualifiers you omitted... but thanks for hearing me out. I don't have any more time today to spend on this, unfortunately; otherwise I think you and I could actually have a productive discussion!

after reading more of this thread, note to self: don't get raped by a musician with avid fans

i think you're fine as long as you don't say anything about it

i could probably tell my mom though

check whether she is a big fan of the perp first maybe

They're still selling tickets to the Gira / Thurston Moore gig at the Barbican. I imagine there'll be a lot of people trying to return them.

xp nah, she loves me more than the Beatles

Definitely classic, bro. And they became more classic with time. Check their last three albums for proof.

lol

My only impressions of this band are based on Cop.

idk if Alex in NYC is still reading (sent him a PM) but sorry bro and sorry thraed.

Got your message. Appreciated. No harm done. This thread had/has emotions running high. It happens. Likewise, if my line of questioning upset anyone (some folks unfriended me on Facebook, presumably as a result). I apologize.

I just wanted to take another opportunity to do some apologizing here. I was reading this thread in a somewhat piecemeal manner, and also addressing a lot of it in much the same way one approaches threads about trivial bullshit. The story is still hugely upsetting and it's got a long way to go before all the facts shake out. But that doesn't excuse being flippant, dickish, pedantic and/or disrespectful regarding the core issue, and I feel like I may have been creating that impression, and for that I sincerely apologize to those I have offended. Obviously, as a devout SWANS fan, I don't *WANT* any of this to be true (no one does), but regardless, that doesn't excuse being insensitive, obstinate, or pig-headedly selective about the bits of the narrative I choose to read.

I am sorry. I promise, I am not a callous asshole. Please forgive me.

You are a fan its cool. Just say Classic or dud and why.

http://www.vidaweb.org/statements-against-silence/

plenty of testimonials against thomas sayers ellis. whereas i can understand larkin's compassion for gira - there wasn't a straight-up malicious intention to his acts - TSE sounds like someone who gets off on degrading women.

I'm eagerly awaiting the page full of anonymous complaints against Margaret Morris.

Was it Andy Warhol who said, "In the future, everyone will be blessed with a page full of anonymous accusations on the internet for fifteen minutes."

I still have absolutely no idea what happened, but the above linked page is just garbage.

omg shut up, you dumb idiot try hard.

Maybe I should just have my dome cracked. This thread is really something.

maybe they should rename this thread to something secret and obscure and let everybody but dlp9001 and Wimmers know what it is.

oh wait Wimmels is t-banned

Rename it, "We know he's guilty because we know" and have a blast.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xu1rPrOs0xIR2/giphy.gif

self-immolating on the internet would be even more impressive if you weren't disguised as a licence plate

nothing you just said has anything to do with the lunkheaded mra type of dismissal of a bunch of victims + an entirely unfunny drama club humor type made up warhol quote joke smh kill yourself, dude.

Anonymous Comments in an Empty Room. We can really do better. I'm still kind of in favor of, um, waiting for something vaguely factual. I know that's crazy. Carry on.

this is like the worst of bad looks

so basically you want signed affidavits made in the presence of police officers?

would be amazed if you demanded such 'evidence' for other things people said to you.

"sorry honey, I can't console you about the bullying you went through at school until I've done my thorough interview first"

I know it's crazy talk around here, but I'd like to wait and see what people have to say before condemning someone based on a Facebook comment.

as you have established this point, perhaps it might be best to leave this thread behind for now?

You're probably right. I actually think that might be true for everyone.

they're anonymous bc no woman wants to go through what larkin is going through, what cosby's victims are going through, what kesha is going through.

no woman wants her whole life viewed through a lying-whore filter.

no woman wants to go through bodily violations that leave her struggling to get past the damage, only to be told none of it happened and that no one believes her.

and citing the old replace-female-accuser-with-male-accused-and-seewhatididthere! is a false equivalency, which you would know unless you live under a rock.

You're probably right. I actually think that might be true for everyone.

― dlp9001, Thursday, March 10, 2016 8:53 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

man fuck you with your thread policing shit, repeating the same damn inane shit over and over even after ten or more others have clearly elucidated their viewpoints and you've essentially just ignored them.

we've already heard what ppl have to say, and there wasn't just a single throwaway fb comment. this isn't going through the courts bc larkin is interested in the greater good for both men and women, and is sacrificing getting her own justice. all she is asking anybody is think about consent, and to speak up if you witness a lack of it.

I think Larkin said it better. "I am only speaking of it now because after being accused of “lynching” Thomas, I cannot ethically keep Michael’s secret any longer. He’s a white guy, and his crime was far worse than what Thomas did to me or Margaret."

I'd like to think that a board that I've been on for ten? fifteen? I can't recall. Years, would have the ability to actually wait and get a sense of what happened in a complicated situation before throwing someone under the bus. As noted, I'm not on the Kim Fowley or Dr. Luke (or Beatles, let's be honest) threads making a fuss.

Those TSE stories have a whole lot of odd, extremely specific details in them to be made up