Swans: Classic or Dud?

pretty sure he drifted in on an ill wind from an MRA board based on his reactions to her statements.

never lock this thread

lock rape apologists' abilities to post

pay every woman and survivor of assault who read this thread $1000

^^^^^^^^ yes! this is what i meant by those trying to 'win' this thread. and why, shakey, i'm NOT gonna walk away. i don't know how many more times it needs to be explained why we are believing larkin over grimm, but it seems some ilxors are just too fucking stubborn/ignorant/assholish to pay attention.

wow FP back with a vengeance!

jesus christ, are yall really this fucking stupid?

― jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak),

hope this wasn't at me

I'd imagine Roxymuzak's comment was directed at me for daring to ask a couple of questions.

But, y'know, okay. I guess an actual discussion isn't going to happen.

Multiple posters have laid out why it is important to believe people who speak out about sexual assault, but you "reasonable" people have repeatedly said that we're not answering you. THE ACTUAL DISCUSSION HAS ALREADY HAPPENED, YOU'RE JUST CHOOSING TO IGNORE IT.

xp

if you genuinely can't fathom why it's deemed important to enthusiastically believe survivors in our current social climate, go study rape and trauma for a year before speaking in public on the subject again. you are making yourself look terrible, and you are doing harm.

So, even if there are developments or nuances or added context to the story, eh? I see.

https://49.media.tumblr.com/0aa778479a7280b2e4f32a08cd7ad505/tumblr_mjd4jxZvSH1qzsq0xo1_500.gif

So, even if there are developments or nuances or added context to the story, eh? I see.

This thread is a whirlpool in a sewer. Why are you so intent on going for a swim?

So, even if there are developments or nuances or added context to the story, eh? I see.
--Alex in NYC

Alex if you think spouses/ex-spouses popping up on FB calling LG a crazy whore all the while boldly stating "proof to clear Michael's good name is around the corner just you wait" is worthwhile development/nuance/context... Well let's just say that I'd do some reevaluating if I were you.

otm. the campaign to discredit larkin grimm is the exact fucking same disingenuous dance that happens every time a woman speaks out about rape.

I didn't use the term "worthwhile," but a progression in the story it remains.

Your definition of progress wildly different from most other posters on this thread.

I realize you're in feverish rush to have the last word, Alex, but the term "progression" simply means a movement or development ... which, for better or worse, it was.

If I thought you were looking at those responses with the kind of revulsion they merit I might have more sympathy with your POV Alex.

xp you need your dome cracked

dude I like you and know this thread really upsets you but let's try to keep threats off the thread where we are talking abt victims of violence

For the record I didn't know who Larkin Grimm was a week ago, while I own just about everything Gira's done, have seen Swans/AoL/Gira live in some variation a half dozen times, but reading Grimm's original post I was struck immediately by the clear believability (and frankly maturity and overall sympathy of it) whereas every single response from the Gira camp has struck me as petty, cruel and immature. Those responses don't represent any change to the underlying narrative except to reinforce the more grotesque aspects of our culture when people (particularly women) come forward with these charges.

EXACTLY (although I owned two Grimm LPs and was a big fan already, I was a much bigger Swans fan). it's the responses that have created the big issue and subsequent discussion more than anything else - earlier upthread roxy noted how it was a textbook example of how NOT to respond to an allegation.

two classic examples of how not to respond to a possible rape victim:

only now just noticed the likely intended implication in DLP's fourth post:

New Larkin Grimm

and Wimmels' post in response to the one i'm linking here:

Swans: Classic or Dud?

teachable moments for those who are able to muster up empathy for those in this situation and want to know what not to say

I need my dome cracked???

I'm not trolling. I'm not being needlessly provocative. I'm not making jokes. I'm trying to participate in a discussion, but if it's going to devolve into insults and threats I'm out. Stay classy, ILX.

That was pretty lame, but I'm still not sure what you want to "discuss".

this thread isn't about your hurt feelings bc ppl think you're a bit of dickhead for ignoring every attempt to actually discuss things, or have things explained to you

never lock this thread

lock rape apologists' abilities to post

pay every woman and survivor of assault who read this thread $1000

― jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:03 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

eat shit y'all (you know who you are)

Don't worry about my feelings. I can handle that. It's just the mob mentality that I'm a bit surprised by. Someone else has come forward and made a statement, but it's clearly not going to be addressed here.

All I'd wish you to cop to is your position has everything to do with there identity of the accused saying "well I wouldn't have clicked on a thread about Nickelback thread" feels like a colour, especially since Gira is the one who went from this who is changing his story

i wish people would stop defending their takes by appealing to the supposedly "credible" or "suspicious" character of the public statements made by the parties involved, whose story is changing, etc.

circumstantial, irrelevant trivialities like that are typically touted as "evidence" by those who wish to discredit rape victims. the truth is not always told by the person with the most seemingly sensible account, nor is it always told consistently.

To Robbie's statements: Well, no...as I mentioned upthread, to Gira's mind, he didn't change his story. He admitted to an "awkward mistake" (his words). That, to me, indicated that he doesn't perceive said "awkward mistake" as rape (He very well be mistaken). As such, he considers Mr. Grimm's allegations as "lie" (again, his words). Taken with that in mind, to *his mind* he didn't change his story.

Make no mistake, please: If the circumstances indeed were that he engaged in penetration without consent, that is unquestionably rape. No grey areas there. He's guilty.

You made the Nickelback joke, not me. I couldn't care less about Nickelback or Avril. Not sure what point you were going for with that. I'm obviously invested in this as a fan of Michael Gira's, and trying to make sense of the whole story. But, when I do ask questions to that end, I'm labeled a "dickhead" in need of a "dome-cracking." So be it. My feelings, again, aren't hurt by that (some of us have said much worse things here about entirely trivial things), but I think it undermines the gravity of the subject here. But, what do I know.

Not sure what you mean by "feels like a colour."

The statement I was referring to up there was recently made by a former bandmember of Ms. Grimm's (i.e. someone who actually knows her, unlike most participants here). Were this a court of law, I believe we'd call her a character witness. But, in all sincerity, I think the point has been ground home that no one really believes this should be taken any further here, as it's clearly stirring up a lot of negativity. I get that, so I will finally recuse myself from further comment and spare anyone my opinions.

(XP)
Yeab he whole focus on "changing stories" & "new developments" is a mistake, plain & simple, because it expects reality to have some ultimate bedrock of truth that can be accessed & interpreted according to simplistic binaries: rape = evil, most men = not-evil, therefore most men accused of rape are innocent & if they appear guilty it's only because we lack some of the 'context'. It would be far more productive to spend time changing your own mind so that it is capable of more nuanced 'fuzzy logical' thinking.

to Gira's mind, he didn't change his story. He admitted to an "awkward mistake" (his words). That, to me, indicated that he doesn't perceive said "awkward mistake" as rape (He very well be mistaken). As such, he considers Mr. Grimm's allegations as "lie" (again, his words). Taken with that in mind, to *his mind* he didn't change his story.

I'm not gonna do that thing where a transparently o_O-worthy post gets quoted 100,000,000,000,000,0)),000,000,000,000 times, but I *strongly* urge you to reflect on what you are saying here & the assumptions you make in order to say it

Attempting to explain how the accused perceives the situation is not the same as endorsing that perception.

Again, do you want me to leave or not?

The woman who was the center of teh alleged attack by Thomas Sayers Ellis (his ex girlfriend) has posted on FB with a rather lengthy claim that attacks Grimm's mental state.

(I don't really have a strong dog in this race; I'm inclined to believe Grimm about the Gira thing; the incident with TSE was the one I wanted to hear more about since it apparently happened in front of lots of people, yet no one had spoken about it yet)

good god this is not a dog race! i am only here to collect my $1000 (or more? i do fall into several categories) and request an end to rape culture

You made the Nickelback joke, not me. I couldn't care less about Nickelback or Avril. Not sure what point you were going for with that. I'm obviously invested in this as a fan of Michael Gira's, and trying to make sense of the whole story. But, when I do ask questions to that end, I'm labeled a "dickhead" in need of a "dome-cracking." So be it. My feelings, again, aren't hurt by that (some of us have said much worse things here about entirely trivial things), but I think it undermines the gravity of the subject here. But, what do I know.

alex 1) i haven't called you a dick or been abusive towards you in any way, and i did not and not mean the nickelback thing as a joke. i am very seriously suggesting that if nothing else about this entire situation was different - down to the quotes from both sides being identical -- but the thread title was "nickelback's chad kroeger accused of rape" and avril lavigne was in the position of his ex-wife defending him....i'm saying that i believe you would not hold the positions you have in this thread. i.e. i believe this has everything to do with the fact the swans are a big deal to you. and i don't even think you have bad intentions i'm just suggesting maybe you examine your own motivations at core.

i don't know how you communicate that more articulately or respectfully than that.

Here's the statement ppl are talking about:

"Clearly Larkin Grimm is not well. Mental illness does not equate with dishonesty. However, in Grimm’s case, both are active to the detriment of my colleague and former life partner, Thomas Ellis’s reputation and career. I have worked with Thomas for years now, and though our personal relationship did not work, I know him well and deeply and Grimm’s public depictions of him are errant and libelius. I continue to work with Thomas professionally and I stand with him in this matter. Larkin Grimm has admitted in writing that, when off her medication, she lacks compassion and enjoys playing tricks on people. During her short tenure with Heroes Are Gang Leaders, she wove a tapestry of lies about her past marriage, false suicide attempts, and a number of other stories that she carefully tailored to the particular listener in order to garner their sympathy and rely on their decency to keep her confidences private. As her statements became bolder and more difficult to fathom, members of HAGL began discussing them and quickly discovered that Larkin Grimm is a very calculating liar. When she feared her place in the band was in jeopardy, she fabricated sexual harassment allegations against the main three band members who saw through her lies and wanted her out. Later she addressed the entire group, promising no more lies and that she was trying to be a better person--that she felt that the person she was when she was playing was the better person that she strived to be in life. Unfortunately, Grimm has not been successful in that aim. She went on to publically conflate an unfortunate incident within my then broken relationship with Thomas Ellis--an incident she uses lies to describe--with a rape allegation she made against producer Michael Gira from 2008, two completely unrelated stories beyond Grimm’s opportunistic linking in order to publicise her new album.

-Margaret Morris of Heroes Are Gang Leaders"

woah

That funny, because I was just going through Heroes Are Gang Leaders videos just to get an idea of their sound and I was like "Damn, I don't see Larkin Grimm anywhere in here - did she make THAT up?"

Walking back the part where I say it's funny because obviously this whole thing is unfunny.

ty

wanna clarify that regardless of how this turns out, Gira's initial statement was reprehensible, and the behavior of some male posters in this thread has been awful throughout

and yes, I will believe the victim first next time, too

In my perfect world, the standard of proof required for public opinion to view a woman (or anyone) as 'untrustworthy' is more demanding than the standard of proof to view a man as 'probably a rapist' (& the two are not, it should go without saying, mutually exclusive -- as though there did not exist a well-documented correlation between mental illness & victimization, esp. sexual assault), but I must admit that that statement goes a long way towards establishing the former.

It's certainly risky to come to either conclusion until there is sufficient evidence. It's very weird to me to take any side right off the bat, but of course the accusation should always be taken very seriously.

If you read comments to that Morris post it seems like there are people like Gira's ex objecting to media outlets even reporting on this story and not giving sufficient deference to Gira's side.

Not re-joining this, just wanted to reach back out to Robbie: Sorry to be defensive. Lots of stuff being thrown around here. I must confess to not knowing about the Nickelback story -- I thought you were implying that the only reason I was weighing in here was because I'm a SWANS fan (which is true). Don't know anything about a similar allegation made against the Nickelback guy. Ugh. Anyway, no offense taken, and none implied. Carry on everyone. This is awful, ugly business.

Here's hoping the thread can get back to its true purpose: Speculative fan fiction about Chad Kroger raping Avril Lavigne

Sleeve, I wouldn't really walk anything back based on the MM statement either. I read it earlier, decided it didn't really shed much light one way or the other and could be impeached pretty easily in any number of ways (ex-wife of band leader accuses woman of mental illness). There are other statements by HAGL members also questioning Larkin that haven't shown up here. I don't see statements being the answer.

One thing I'd probably focus on is the difference between "believe" and "take seriously." The latter makes a lot of sense to me. The former doesn't.

the standard of proof required for public opinion to view a woman (or anyone) as 'untrustworthy' is more demanding than the standard of proof to view a man as 'probably a rapist'

― bernard snowy, Friday, March 4, 2016 7:23 AM (1 hour ago)

i get where you're coming from, and i know it's a good place, but i just can't. no.

lot of liars out there, and a lot of rapists, too. no need to take it any further than that.