Swans: Classic or Dud?

This 'proof' is really taking it's time, huh?

Swans are a band I only feel the urge to listen to once or twice a year under the best of circumstances. I last listened to them several months ago. By the time I'm in the mood to listen to them again, absent an actual criminal trial or something similarly attention-getting, I will probably have forgotten all about this.

Swans are awesome, I'll probably listen to them today

i haven't really gotten into this thread at all but i think that posts by fgti, justine, sarahel, and others are excellent and i am inclined to support grimm in this whole thing. the character assassination shit and calling out grimm's alleged mental illness or whatever as reason to be suspect of her statements is really fucked up.

i rarely listen to swans to begin with but i think it is safe to assume that a significant chunk of the artists i listen to have probably done something like gira did, and fgti's outstanding post about drinking, rape, consent i think highlights how common this really is. you can throw out your swans albums if you want but if you think the other artists in your collection are "clean" then you are fucking naive

Bowie's 1987 rape charge is a good analogue - he said/she said, where he says it was consensual but she didn't and he throws round phrases like 'attention seeker' and 'ridiculous'.

In fact, his example is potentially worse because at least in Gira/Grimm there seems to have been some kind of relationship at the back of it acknowledged by both parties whereas Bowie's was a drink/drug fuelled one-off event.

Also, her claim was easier to refute - she also said Bowie explicitly told her post-assault that he had given her AIDS.

plus bowie & the underage

gimme some reggae

no immediate plans to listen to swans cuz winter

user "dispossessed" has made exactly 1 post to ilxor.com

wtf is even going on itt

i am not a big swans guy but i went to see them on the last tour
parts were pretty cool like overwhelming sound
but parts felt just really flat and oppressive and dull like a 90s pink floyd show or something

you just described "To Be Kind"

even if incontrovertible proof came out that their was proper consent, i wouldn't regret immediately and consistently believing larkin's story.

― just1n3, Thursday, March 3, 2016 2:45 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OK, now this is the most idiotic thing I have ever read

who is this terrible poster?

xp fortunately nobody ITT cares what you think, at all

maybe I was just referring to the 'there / their' confusion, which my ten year old niece seems to have licked but not the person arguing to discredit a man forever despite the testimony of three credible women and no further accusations against the accused

you've gone from blind to cruel to petty

for absolute starters you need to ditch the 'no further accusations' bit ffs

there are other boards where your oh-so-fresh typo gags and arbitrary assigning of which women are credible and which aren't will be welcome, try to find them

wow there are some v toxic posters itt huh

fucking hell mods fucking lock this fucking thread

You gotta be sitting me.

The "poor grammar = UNRELIABLE" method?

Is this a BBcode message board in 2002

might be a good idea esp after the mystery poster upthread

For all the people like Wimmels who are incapable of walking away from a conversation to which they have so little to contribute: it is my sincere hope that your stubborn persistence here attests to a nagging kernel of doubt, buried far beneath the glib surface of your rhetoric & the arrogant confidence you place in a manifestly untrue & self-serving worldview; and that this seed may yet grow into a flourishing beanstalk of earth-shattering revelations & beckon you to undertake a journey of self-discovery that someday, in a few years, leads you to reread the things you wrote here & shake your head sadly in disbelief.

OK now we can lock the thread

you've gone from blind to cruel to petty

this reads like an Elvis Costello lyric

also why is this thread still a thing

Oh wimmelpaws

"a conversation to which they have so little to contribute"

Just a thought -- Wimmel's contributions are just as valid as anyone else's here. Whether you happen to agree with him or not is entirely incidental. It's a public forum, fer cyrin' out loud.

They can be valid and still worthless. And they are.

give em enough rope

Btw, how long are people willing to wait for this 'proof'? Gira said this wasn't a 'he said / she said' thing, so talking of it like that is already saying that he's lying.

I honestly, at the beginning, thought that Gira probably didn't do it, because otherwise why would he bother talking about 'proof'? That would backfire in a major way. But no.

there's a little bit of that worthlessness

Xp to alexNYC -- admittedly I may have been conflating Wimmels with dlp (of the thousand & one "this conversation is stupid & pointless!" posts); but given that Wimmels' last two posts itt were 1. Calling another poster idiotic (no elaboration), and 2. Attempting to discredit an alleged rape survivor's story based on typos, I would argue that those contributions not worth the keyboard they're typed on

A good keyboard can set you back

Responding to Alex in NYC's question about listening to Swans going forward. I can say this. I always thought Kim Fowley was an untrustworthy creep and some sort of half-formed musical genius, but after the Jackie story (which immediately did ring true and was backed by witnesses) I consigned him to the dustbin. He probably died the way he deserved to, and I can live without relistening to his albums. Done. It's safe to guess that the Beatles all committed statutory rape, but we'll never know so we'll keep on having lovely Beatles threads.

I could also live without listening to Swans again. It's not a band that's central to my life, though I do think that one of their live albums (Feel Good Now) is the best example in rock history of a live album improving on the original version. I'm not sure how important that is in the grand scheme of things. I've never felt that liking Gira had any particular relationship to liking his music given what it is, but at the same time Boyd Rice apparently has some decent albums that I'm not planning to buy. Ever.

To be brutally honest, I've thought for a long time that Gira's obsession with sex/power dynamics comes from the fact that something probably did happen to him in prison that he's been skirting around for decades.

As far as other stuff, Larkin's comments about why she threw the white guy under the bus aren't encouraging. She had eight years to make this known, and for at least four of them has been completely outside of his influence in terms of her career, but decides to go public right after being kicked out of a band that includes her ex-husband, and after accusing its leader of sexual impropriety also. Which story seems to have vanished from the internet entirely. I really don't know much except for two things:

1. Nobody other than Larkin and Gira knows what happened the night they got drunk and ended up in bed together.
2. The hand wringing, "Oh, everyone who disagrees with me is a sensless monster who didn't take the same women's studies classes that I did" is sad.

Sleeve asked for the thread to be locked. I agree. If more reasonably credible accusations against Gira come out, I'd say he's toast.

wrong on nearly every count, thread should have been locked after bernard's post, primarily to prevent you and wimmels from continuing to post horrific garbage, now you've fucked it up again.

We wouldn't want to listen to people who disagree with us. I think that might have been a Smiths' song.

fucking hell mods fucking lock this fucking thread

http://www.standbyformindcontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/phantom-zone.jpg

Stevie I thought we both agreed life is better when one avoids these threads cmon we should be posting in a djp thread about German toilets like it's 2009 life was good then

We wouldn't want to listen to people who disagree with us

Since you apparently don't understand anything, I'll spell it out:

- No one here has a problem listening to people who "disagree" with us
- We have a problem listening to people you use a false 'even-handedness' as a figleaf for treating confessed abuse victims with sneering condescension and thinly-disguised contempt.

There really hasn't been any sneering condescension or thinly disguised contempt. I'm sorry you see it that way.

There have been a ton of "you just don't get it" or "For the love of god stop it" posts. I said above that this wasn't going to be a productive thread, and I still think that's the case, and I think everyone agrees at this point.

The only person who claims to have taken women's studies classes is wimmelpaws! But he also claims to have been raised in an all-women family.

I won't have any thinly disguised contempt on this thread.

You're right, it's mostly open contempt.

too easy, sure, but how could you not?

not even paws. just nubs.

wimmelnubs.

Public Castration is a Good Idea
Feel Good Now
Anonymous Bodies In An Empty Room

Just thought some titles might be worth listing. I was at a couple of those gigs too.

Maybe we should all just back off until there's a definitive develop in the story. Sorry for reviving.

developMENT.