Swans: Classic or Dud?

i played a show with bisi once, pretty awful music

I guess I know him more as a producer never heard good music

I kept wondering if jarboe would have anything to say but nothing yet

I'm pretty sure that Jarboe wasn't there the night that Gira did/didn't rape Larkin Grimm, so I'm not exactly sure what she'd have to say. I would like to point out, though, that Larkin has a new song out on Bandcamp that everyone should listen to.

jarboe has alluded to "solidarity" with michael on her fb.

I hate when people do that. You have no idea what happened Jarboe . Pledge solidarity privately in these instances.

i mean its her own personal fb page..

IYou have no idea what happened Jarboe

not unlike a lot of the posts on this page!

Nobody here is a (relatively) public figure either

I hate when people do that. You have no idea what happened Jarboe . Pledge solidarity privately in these instances.

― you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Tuesday, March 1, 2016 12:48 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So public solidarity is OK as long as its with the accuser and not the accused. Got it.

i think you're overcorrecting by sneering at the statements made by a possible rape victim

Xpost sure if you wanna strawman what I said

people wonder why rape victims don't come forward sometimes, i wonder if it has anything to do with people not remaining neutral or supporting them, but rather implying that they're liars, sometimes implying they may be doing it for attention. maybe some of them don't want to be psychologically traumatized a second time.

"I'm a feminist, guys! Except when someone I like is accused of doing something bad, then women are clearly attention-seeking lying whores".

Otm.

Like I'm not saying Jarboe should be mum but pledging solidarity comes across as "I support my friend in the face of these horrible made up lies". Similar to Rashad re: Cosby.

Probably not what is meant but it's how it could be read.

Xpost

"hmm i was wondering what jarboe thinks of all this"

*jarboe posts something*

"stupid jarboe i hate when ppl do this! ppl in the public need to stfu!"

smh

xp "I'm a critically-thinking person, guys! Except when someone I don't know accuses someone else I don't know of doing something bad, then I'm ready to take sides immediately based on speculation, conjecture, and my own personal biases."

I believe I will stay off the internet for a few days until this whole thing blows over

you, like 5 days ago

jfc stfu

i couldn't possibly imagine why women hesitate to speak out about sexual abuse, jeez, i have no idea why that might be

oh wait, this thread

it's fucking revolting

WRETCH

New song out today, dedicated to all the survivors of abuse. Recorded with Martin Bisi and Tony Visconti.

http://larkingrimm.bandcamp.com/track/i-dont-believe

― dlp9001, Tuesday, March 1, 2016 2:31 AM (16 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

impeccable timing

I guess art really is higher than morality

― Wimmels, Tuesday, March 1, 2016 2:06 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

cool guy

sorry but knowing multiple people who survived abuse and assault (including one of my best friends, both her and her sister being assaulted while young by their mom's boyfriend, one of whom was too scared to speak up bc the other wasn't believed by anyone for quite awhile) i find comments like that infuriating to the extreme.

swans bros are the worst bros

not that it's any different anywhere else just ugh

swans bros suck thats tru

Um Kurt yr conflating nomar and me

you guys are "people" im just talkin bout "people"

neanderthal is technically our ancestor

lol

a swans bro defriended me on fb for posting about the Death in June Nazi thing ... but that's just one dude

when we try to talk about these issues swans bros want to quiet us

xp kurt - swans bro was briefly in a band with our mutual friend whose birthday is today

a swans bro defriended me on fb for posting about the Death in June Nazi thing ... but that's just one dude

― sarahell, Tuesday, March 1, 2016 1:22 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

is there some new thing or just the same thing that's been going on for the past 30 years?

many xp If you're referring to me, I'm not a "Swans bro." Like you, I am generally more inclined to believe an accuser than the accused in these situations for many of the reasons mentioned and linked to upthread. And I'm sorry if this sounds very "I have black friends," but I grew up with sisters and a strong mother, took women's studies courses in college, worked in venues that sponsored women's self defense classes, and generally consider myself a strong supporter of women's rights. I realize this isn't the same as being on the front line, necessarily, but I'd just as soon not be lumped in with fanboys and misogynists.

What I don't understand is why no one, as of yet, has answered my (very reasonable) question above, namely, why does "innocent until proven guilty" not apply here, given the fact that all we have to go on is one person's word against another person's word? Many of you here had already made up your minds the second Larkin posted her accusation.

I've seen some vicious, terrible things said about Gira these past few days, despite the fact that two (credible) women have already come out in his defense and no one else has--as of yet--come forward with accusations like Larkin's. It's also important to remember this is a man with children who are (iirc) just about internet-browsing age, and wild speculation in these instances can damage more than a music career.

why does "innocent until proven guilty" not apply here

because this is not a court of law, it's the internet

is there some new thing or just the same thing that's been going on for the past 30 years?

― robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, March 1, 2016 11:26 AM (12 minutes ago)

they played a show where we live.

then this happened:
http://missionlocal.org/2014/11/death-in-june-protest-at-elbo-room/

"(credible)"

gtfo

that is like one step away from "he's the captain of the football team/successful businessman/esteemed politician" defense and wholly ignores the power dynamics at play here

how does one gain sufficient credibility for Wimmels in this case?

'He hasnt raped anyone else'

?

xp So, this "power dynamic" I am ignoring...just so I have this right: this relatively minor figure who owns a small indie label (which seems to currently only exist to release his own music, which is itself often funded by crowdsourcing) is an untouchable tyrant used to "getting what he wants" without consequences, taking advantage of the vulnerable artists on his roster under penalty of being "dropped." This is what you're saying? Sorry, but that's absurd. I would guess that Larkin got "dropped" for the same reason anyone gets dropped: because her records didn't sell. See also: Flux Information Sciences, Mi & Lau, Windsor For The Derby, every non-Swans band to ever record for YGR, etc.

i think you're overcorrecting by sneering at the statements made by a possible rape victim

― nomar, Tuesday, March 1, 2016 6:22 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this x1000

Probably too late to weigh back in on this, as there's been a tsunami of responses since my last comment. In any case, I stand by my use of the word "retort," because that's what it was... a response to an accusation. Simple as that. Look it up.

No one's going to agree, but I get the impression (and this is just my impression...I don't speak for anyone else, "SWANS Bros" or otherwise) that Gira doesn't feel his second statement (wherein he admitted the "awkward mistake") is a reversal of his initial statement (wherein he called Ms. Grimm's accusation a "slanderous lie"). Rightly or wrongly, I don't believe he perceives the events the same way Ms. Grimm does (i.e. while he regrets the event, he doesn't characterize it as rape). Thus, he considers her accusation a lie. I'm not agreeing with him, necessarily (I wasn't there ... and nor were you), I'm just trying to make sense of the narrative. Ms Grimm herself has also since expressed that she wasn't the "perfect victim" (her words) and that the story is "nuanced."

Regardless, unsolicited sexual congress without consent is rape -- whether brutality and force enters into it or not. If indeed he didn't have consent, it was rape.

You previously recorded on Young God. When and why did you leave that label?

Michael Gira is very difficult to get along with, and I'm not the only person to be on his label for one or two records. I knew it was just a matter of time. I decided to collaborate with him on my last record, because I admired his work and I always wanted to work with him I thought, "How exciting to do that?" So I did and then the next record...you know, he really like dark, heavy, intense music. I wanted to make a more beautiful album and Tony Visconti wanted to work with me, as a collaborator and co- producer -- he recorded a lot of the classic David Bowie records and he plays bass on my whole new record.

I had to choose between the two, and I was like, "I already worked with Michael Gira. So...I'm going to try this guy out." It was between the time between my last record and my newest record, I moved to New York City so, it's just a whole different community of musicians, and a different scene. And the music world has changed so much that I really don't think there's any point on being on a record label. If you've got enough money to put your own record out, you should do it. That's what I did. I don't have to split my profits with anybody now. That's great.

I think that nuanced is an understatement.

Probably too late to weigh back in on this, as there's been a tsunami of responses since my last comment. In any case, I stand by my use of the word "retort," because that's what it was... a response to an accusation. Simple as that. Look it up.

No one's going to agree, but I get the impression (and this is just my impression...I don't speak for anyone else, "SWANS Bros" or otherwise) that Gira doesn't feel his second statement (wherein he admitted the "awkward mistake") is a reversal of his initial statement (wherein he called Ms. Grimm's accusation a "slanderous lie"). Rightly or wrongly, I don't believe he perceives the events the same way Ms. Grimm does (i.e. while he regrets the event, he doesn't characterize it as rape). Thus, he considers her accusation a lie. I'm not agreeing with him, necessarily (I wasn't there ... and nor were you), I'm just trying to make sense of the narrative. Ms Grimm herself has also since expressed that she wasn't the "perfect victim" (her words) and that the story is "nuanced."

Regardless, unsolicited sexual congress without consent is rape -- whether brutality and force enters into it or not. If indeed he didn't have consent, it was rape.

― Alex in NYC, Tuesday, March 1, 2016 3:16 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^^ most sensible thing I've read so far

Gira is not a minor figure in the context of indie rock or noise music or whatever, it's absurd to think so