Swans: Classic or Dud?

the peace with the demons thing is straight up victim blaming bs

and it's the typical smear tactic in this case, a mix of condescension and concern-trolling that will nonetheless placate those that are willing to see him as innocent simply cos they like him.

I'd say (judging from here and elsewhere) that this strategy backfired.

I mean there's that whole monologue in (I'm sorry) Chasing Amy where Afflect's character suggests Amy is a virgin because she can't have 'penetrative' sex. It is definitely a thing with men that they focus on climax as constituting whether it was sex or not.

sex is not a one-way activity. to pretend the man has to have an orgasm for it to be a sexual act is insane.

I know that, thanks. I assumed by "not consummated" he meant that there wasn't any penetration, but you guys may be right. That whole sentence is really vague.

I'd say (judging from here and elsewhere) that this strategy backfired.

― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Sunday, February 28, 2016 4:03 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yep, and I hope it does. a shitty thing to say (putting it mildly).

i had no desire to revisit the fb statements of the parties involved and comment on how i took them but suffice to say sarahell, justine, emily otm

That whole sentence is really vague.

I'd say her specificity and his vagary is one of the most compelling reasons to give her interpretation far more credence than whatever his is at this point (although there are a lot of other reasons as well).

The inconsistencies in Gira's story make it very suspect.

I was thinking earlier re consummating the sex act that one thing that was circulating about the Clinton /Lewinsky situation was that being Southern Clinton didn't see oral sex as a ful sex act so was denying things on that grounds. Also tied in with Mormon groupies in Salt Lake city giving the best head since with it not being penetrative sex it didn't count against your virtue or whatever when you grew out of that phase.
So the epistemology of what is recognised as constituting sex seems to have a wide perimeter, which might help one making excuses to oneself.

Just said that a bit wrong it was supposed to be that which does/doesn't constitute a sex act in people's epistemology has a wide parameter. So what an individual may believe to not constitute sex may depend on where they were brought up and when.

I don't think he was confused or coming from a different perspectivd here, I think that was a weasel-worded smokescreen, a way to deny the event without technically "lying"

I don't think lying sack of shit Bill Clinton was confused either.

Yeah seriously good point

i just keep coming back to the fact that so many ppl are acting like larkin is somehow in the wrong for speaking out now/at all/ever/publicly/etc vs gira bringing this entire clusterfuck entirely on himself in all sorts of different ways. he has fucked up so many lives over this, when a simple admission to her years ago, followed by an apology, would have kept this under wraps. even now, if he had immediately acknowledged and apologized, this would have died down significantly, and quickly.

Lol wut no it wouldnt have!

Obviously he could have handled it way better but once it became public I'm pretty sure there was no way he wasn't going to get damaged by this allegation. It remains to be seen how badly this hurts him though even with his shitty response. Way worse humans still sell records.

weird to see swans has like over 30 threads on ilm and I have never listened to anything by this dude - like he has to live on a small but devoted cult, anything that eats into that has to hurt him a lot i would guess but i don't have any insight into gira fandom so maybe not

if he had privately contacted larkin, talked with her, he then could have said 'yeah, i've been a real asshole for not acknowledging that i did not have her enthusiastic consent, i realized i just took her consent for granted, refused to really listen to what she was saying and then lived in denial about my actions, male privilege etc etc, my message to other men is etc etc, i've apologized privately but now i want to apologize publicly etc etc'. bullshit this wouldn't have kept the story to waaaaay less of a clusterfuck, one that ppl would quickly move on from! because there wouldn't have been much left to argue about, there'd be none of the he said/she said stuff, no taking sides, it would be resolved at the personal level and then the conversation could move beyond the two main players and onto the bigger topic of rape culture.

I said this elsewhere but if a woman changed her story this often I can't imagine the amount of shit she'd get so I'm not sure why people are giving gira a pass unquestioningly

xxp
If you want some insights into Gira fandom: mine was kindled by the three excellent albums Swans have made since their 2010 revival, and when the allegations broke I was contemplating spending money on music by his other group, Angels of Light. I have subsequently tabled those plans; I don't know whether the allegations will diminish my enjoyment of Swans' music, which is so much bigger (musically, materially, & conceptually) than any one person, Michael Gira included; but the Angels of Light stuff tends to be way more stripped-down & folksy, in a way that might not survive without its cult appeal.

Gira is definitely an iconic, larger-than-life figure for me -- I mean, you've got Sonic Youth opening for him on their first-ever tour, come on! -- but I don't think he ever did anything to earn my veneration, and if I've put him on a pedestal due to his involvement with a lot of records I've deeply loved throughout the years (by Swans, Angels of Light, Akron/Family, & others) then I think this scandal offers the chance to take him down & reflect on the reasons why I put him there (white, male, respected New York artist, 'transgressive', cynical, etc?)

In other words: I know better than to spring to his defense, feel less-inclined to support him with $$$ in the future, but would probably get defensive if anyone tried to call me out for continuing to enjoy his music.

if he had privately contacted larkin, talked with her, he then could have said 'yeah, i've been a real asshole for not acknowledging that i did not have her enthusiastic consent, i realized i just took her consent for granted, refused to really listen to what she was saying and then lived in denial about my actions, male privilege etc etc, my message to other men is etc etc, i've apologized privately but now i want to apologize publicly etc etc'. bullshit this wouldn't have kept the story to waaaaay less of a clusterfuck, one that ppl would quickly move on from! because there wouldn't have been much left to argue about, there'd be none of the he said/she said stuff, no taking sides, it would be resolved at the personal level and then the conversation could move beyond the two main players and onto the bigger topic of rape culture.

― just1n3, Monday, February 29, 2016 3:35 AM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

quoted & bolded for truth & reconciliation

stevolende cmon, the account given is about someone being raped while sleeping; you are obv not wrong abt the broad parameters of 'sex' but that is not pertinent here

she isn't even filing a lawsuit or anything and people are jumping through hoops playing lawyer to defend him

it doesn't matter if he thinks it isn't rape if he didn't ejaculate. i don't care if he thought the line was in a different place. you shouldn't need some special amount of knowledge about legal definitions of sex or whatever to know not to put your dick in the body of a non-consenting person.

I wasn't seeing it as an excuse for his behaviour but I did wonder if he did.

Also just thinking about Gira's inclusion in that thread about rockstars as overgrown children who need to be nannied. I hadn't thought he fit in there before, wondering now. Would have thought he had better moral sense. Glad that so far we haven't heard anything about him doing this thanks to a stupor or in another form of unconscious state, sleep-rape or something.
I take it that it is currently a given that she was asleep and he was aware of it, though that is still speculation to some degree.
Would hate to think that her lack of resistance to him made him think it was ok.

if he had privately contacted larkin, talked with her, he then could have said 'yeah, i've been a real asshole for not acknowledging that i did not have her enthusiastic consent, i realized i just took her consent for granted, refused to really listen to what she was saying and then lived in denial about my actions, male privilege etc etc, my message to other men is etc etc, i've apologized privately but now i want to apologize publicly etc etc'.

serious question, are their any cases where a public figure/celebrity has been publicly accused of rape and responded in this way? I can think of cases where there was maybe some circumspect acknowledgement from the accused that they had behaved in a less than exemplary fashion, but not enough to shift the accusation out of 'he said/she said' limbo. the closest I can think of is this:

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/oct/14/oxford-university-student-annie-teriba-resigns-posts-non-consensual-sex

I guess it would be nice to think that if if Gira responded to Grimm's fb post with a swift admission and apology that everyone would have quickly moved on to a productive discussion about these issues in general, but that seems unlikely to me tbh.

presumably his lawyer would tell him that a public admission of guilt would open the door to prosecution if larkin changed her mind down (statute of limitations notwithstanding)

down *the road

I was wondering, if Gira did publicly admit to rape would he be at risk of prosecution even if Grimm didn't want to pursue that option? would it be possible to prosecute him without her involvement or would she need to make a complaint to the police for that to happen, even if he had made a public confession?

mm..
no.

mm..
wrong.

Yeah I get that my hypothetical has never rolled out that way before but that's my point. If other women come out with similar stories, though, he's fucked.

oh yeah, that's truee.

true.

Larkin has a new song out about survivors of abuse, released today. http://larkingrimm.bandcamp.com/track/i-dont-believe. With Martin Bisi and Tony Visconti.

Martin Bisi... That's interesting

yeah bisi goes way back to the 80s with gira right?

Yeah produced Swans, Angels of Light

i played a show with bisi once, pretty awful music

I guess I know him more as a producer never heard good music

I kept wondering if jarboe would have anything to say but nothing yet

I'm pretty sure that Jarboe wasn't there the night that Gira did/didn't rape Larkin Grimm, so I'm not exactly sure what she'd have to say. I would like to point out, though, that Larkin has a new song out on Bandcamp that everyone should listen to.

jarboe has alluded to "solidarity" with michael on her fb.

I hate when people do that. You have no idea what happened Jarboe . Pledge solidarity privately in these instances.

i mean its her own personal fb page..

IYou have no idea what happened Jarboe

not unlike a lot of the posts on this page!

Nobody here is a (relatively) public figure either

I hate when people do that. You have no idea what happened Jarboe . Pledge solidarity privately in these instances.

― you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Tuesday, March 1, 2016 12:48 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So public solidarity is OK as long as its with the accuser and not the accused. Got it.

i think you're overcorrecting by sneering at the statements made by a possible rape victim

Xpost sure if you wanna strawman what I said