Swans: Classic or Dud?

also I have never heard Swans.

it's fascinating!

― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau)

Hey. Don't.

In response to a few different points being brought up:

People tend to be more skeptical of victims when they are marginilzed groups of people, like women (and like the abused prisoners you mentioned, dlp9001).

Think of all the stories about bands having their gear stolen. Why don't those stories ever erupt into, "the band is lying to gain publicity" arguments? Just be mindful of biases we have toward certain crimes.

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

well I think dlp is right there, there's a difference between saying "I was victimized" and "person X did this to me". if someone says "I was raped 10 years ago" I don't think people are going to run to discredit them, but once you bring in the name of someone who is famous and sort of irrationally loved by thousands of people, that's when the mental gymnastics start coming out.

interested in hearing more about the Thomas Sayers Ellis incident. I'm usually pretty plugged into literary circles but that incident seems to ahve been eclipsed by the Gira allegation. So what happened between Ellis and his girlfriend in front of all these people? And what did he say about Grimm onstage that was so humiliating? Any reports?

Food for thought:

http://feministing.com/2014/05/30/an-open-letter-to-privileged-people-who-play-devils-advocate/

enough with the fucking open letters already

You know who you are. You are that white guy in an Ethnic Studies class who’s exploring the idea that poor people might have babies to stay on welfare.

i am? news to me.

Think of all the stories about bands having their gear stolen. Why don't those stories ever erupt into, "the band is lying to gain publicity" arguments? Just be mindful of biases we have toward certain crimes.

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

― Travisssss, Friday, February 26, 2016 1:59 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think anyone is being insensitive toward the (alleged - see what i did there?) victim at all and I'm actually pretty relieved that this thread has remained as civil as it has. I'm eager to hear people's opinions about this (beyond Gira / Grimm) because I think these discussions are important.

Anyway, Travisssss, your analogy also falls flat. When a band gets their gear stolen, their gear is gone. Short of an brilliant, elaborate scheme in which they get trusted friends to temporarily "hide" all the guitars and amps and keyboards and laptops that were ostensibly stolen, the fact is: band had gear, band no longer has gear. You don't see how this situation is different?

from the article, i thought it was worth posting here

http://d1o2xrel38nv1n.cloudfront.net/files/2014/05/2014-04-10-pltm196-1.jpg

Wow, that's pretty presumptuous. On several counts.

All I'm advocating is letting things play out and examining facts before passing the sort of judgment that could potentially destroy someone's life. I don't think that's a very outrageous position to take.

most rape accusations are truthful
a few are lies
Michael Gira is probably a rapist.
But we can't know for sure.
Lock thread.

^

Those who are pointing at Gira's lyrics as some kind of smoking gun should avail yourselves to the concept of "poetic license." Yes, the man already has a something of a nefarious reputation, but that doesn't make him automatically guilty. Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort.

^

thank god y'all are here to defend poor michael gira

Nobody is doing that here xp

Those who are pointing at Gira's lyrics as some kind of smoking gun should avail yourselves to the concept of "poetic license." Yes, the man already has a something of a nefarious reputation, but that doesn't make him automatically guilty. Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort.

Yeah

I expect Michael Gira, like Conor Oberst, will sue. So:

I too am withdrawing from this conversation (here and elsewhere), and hope it gets resolved, one way or another.

Just to be clear, I wrote that "I expect (he) will sue" because attorneys were mentioned in one of the Facebook posts. I have no opinion about whether he should.

Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort.

Wait you found it moving?

Horrible story. Hopefully the truth comes out one day. Even though I'm sure 99% of the time, the person accused of rape actually performed the crime, sometimes they're not. Cases like the Brian Banks one come to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Banks_(American_football)

"sometimes"

emil.y, crut, sleeve massively OTM. the rest of you should be barred from using the internet.

Travissss too, great posts.

the rest of you should be barred from using the internet.

― lute bro (brimstead), Friday, February 26, 2016 6:50 PM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

so much for the thread remaining civil

it stopped being civil when you started "playing" devil's advocate

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

― Travisssss, Friday, February 26, 2016 1:59 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think anyone is being insensitive toward the (alleged - see what i did there?) victim at all

maybe english isn't your first language, but he was talking about "victims of sexual abuse" in general, not the specific victim of this case.

thank you for standing up for us men, though, we really need the help.

"I believe the woman" is really a pretty safe/reasonable starting position, Gira's heightened, panicky response compared to the very measured, considered statements of hers that I've read didn't do anything to challenge my baseline assumption (much as I would love to not tarnish my warm feelings towards Swans)

"I have no idea what happened," is probably an even safer and more reasonable starting position. "Nothing good is going to come from this thread henceforth," is another one.

I don't really get the "measured tone v. panicked tone, AWFULLY suspicious" thing.

yes, I think that the allegation is more likely to be true than not, but idg why a 'heightened, panicky response' further convinces Simon H that Gira is guilty - it's not like you'd expect someone being falsely accused of rape to be relaxed about the situation, even if the accusation was made in a 'measured, considered' way, surely

I admit it might be partially because it realllly reminds me of the tone taken by Jian Ghomeshi in his initial FB statement - going straight to apparent victim-blaming/shaming pretty much immediately

Just to be clear, I wrote that "I expect (he) will sue" because attorneys were mentioned in one of the Facebook posts. I have no opinion about whether he should.

Let's just say for a second -- yes, I know, it's a HILARIOUS thought -- that he's innocent. In that purely hypothetical instance, wouldn't you think it he'd be entitled to legal action?

Wait you found it moving?

Moving as in evoking strong feelings, moron.

Come on, none of us have a clue what happened. And since it's unlikely that there would be criminal proceedings against Michael Gira - given the length of time which has passed since the alleged event took place, not to mention the apparent lack of external witnesses present in Larkin Grimm's account - it comes down to only a few real possibilities.

1) We never know the truth for certain.

2) The "proof" Jennifer Gira mentions is credible enough to dispel the validity of Larkin Grimm's claims against Michael Gira.

3) That Michael Gira makes some sort of formal statement acknowledging Grimm's claims.

4) Enough alleged victims with credible stories come out against Michael Gira, à la Bill Cosby, to give substance to Grimm's claims.

5) Grimm admits she made the whole thing up.

Beyond wishing for justice for whoever is the damaged party, what more can you say?

thank you for standing up for us men, though, we really need the help.

― lute bro (brimstead), Friday, February 26, 2016 7:34 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

When was I doing this, exactly?

we're constantly bathed in seconhand narrative. i tend to be suspicious of the vast majority of it. applies in situations like this to both accusations of crime and protestations of innocence.

is michael gira guilty of rape? hell if i know. it's clearly none of my damn business.

As somebody who has spent money on Mr. Gira's recordings, it is quite literally my business.

Having read the three posts by the three parties, I'm certainly not going to buy any of his material in the future, and I plan on selling off my post-1998 Swans material (totally subjective cut-off).

I've been down this whole road before in activist communities, and I've made the mistake of splitting hairs and being all "BUT WHAT IF..." before. If it's bullshit, it will become obvious in time. For now, just believe the women. And guess what, you can believe a woman's account without demonizing the man.

gonna walk away again here.

^^^^^^

Well, guess what everyone!

http://pitchfork.com/news/63799-swans-michael-gira-issues-statement-on-larkin-grimm-rape-accusations/

Eight years ago, while I was still married to my first wife, Larkin Grimm and I headed towards a consensual romantic moment that fortunately was not consummated. As she wrote in her recent social media postings about that night, I said to her, "this doesn't feel right," and abruptly but completely our only intimate encounter ended. It was an awkward mistake.
Larkin may regret, as I certainly do, that the ill-advised tryst went even that far, but now, as then, I hold her in high esteem for her music and her courage as an artist.
I long ago apologized to my wife and family and told them the truth about this incident. My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met.

And it was a 'slanderous lie' last night.

My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met.

yeah, wow. the whole thing is kind of weasely but this part especially.

not kind of, really. it seems like he is admitting it happened -- he doesn't refute any part of her claim -- but trying to recast it in this very passive voice type of way.

yikes. i guess he's "evolved" on this issue, then?

The instances of women lying about being raped are well below the instances of men getting away with rape.

there’s really no reliable data on either thing — how many men get away with rape, how many women lie about rape— so I’m not sure how anyone can make this statement in confidence.

people’s opinions on specific incidents — which have no necessary relation to larger trends— seem to depend on what one finds more "believable"— that lots of men are capable of rape, or that lots of women are capable of lying about rape. in every case this is deeply embedded in ideology, personal experience, various cognitive biases, etc.

er, not "in confidence" but rather "with confidence"

My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met.

yeah, i'm really sure this is his "hope"

gira is all christlike and shit

gira was a hero to most, but he never meant shit to me you see

I am thankful that Michael made a statement so transparently abusive that I feel unmixed resolve in tossing out the terrible Swans records I never bought

Having read the three posts by the three parties, I'm certainly not going to buy any of his material in the future, and I plan on selling off my post-1998 Swans material (totally subjective cut-off).

― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:02 (2 hours ago) Permalink