Hip Hop taken to new levels.

"he who does not feel me is not real to me and therefore he does not exist/so poof vamoose you son of a bitch"

Yo! What would you do if I could prove you didn't exist and it was true
Like ??? solidified
proof of your essence

Of you in the spoof of your birth
Now I guess that would lesson your
worth to the dirt and the earth
And the leaf, now I leave you alone without belief that your
really here
And assist you beneath your fear
An endearing tear would fall if all that I said
was true,
Am I right or ???, too complex for quote
I'll have the final say,
Like the rope to
the boat to the dock, you're not free yet, man
You're sick, stuck, caught, sick in the head,
Stuck
to the bed, you're dumbfed
Diseased with that mononuclear, what I look like money?!
That
latin listening to Coolio? So I ask,
What was your mom's task when she had you?
If fully she
knew that through all of her pain
Her baby was born without brain and insane and just plain,
no
style! No smile, your memories are worth a shitpile to me
You believe that you're free?!!
Man, free from your mom,
Free from the man and most of all free from me but you see,
I've caught
you! My bad you don't really exist,
So I got to, explain this so when I tell you how not to,
You
won't do it, I'm screwin your thinkin!
I know I exist and I prove it cause I'm listening to you
But
I ask, what if God was an evil genius who only made you believe you were
true?
And your life
was nothing man! Just a really long dream
And when you die you'll start a whole new life, a whole
new dream
But that was just a dream, and it seems man you can't break out the cycle
Am I crazy?
Go to your church and ask your white God if I'm right though,
Whatever he replies will be lies,
we've already established this evil,
When I'm lying, you don't exist but merely as emotion
and perceival,
Believe you'll be round tomorrow kid, yo,
You've borrowed time with no entrance,
And
since you're a dream I can mentally put on the pinch
And you disappear in an instant,

yeah, I totally got "owned" in thread, especially by cinnablount, who didn't actually pay attention to what I was arguing.

Man, this thread was one lame fuck with ddrake thread nearly from the beginning.

What a fucking joke.

I clearly didn't mean it as an insult. You know that, so you really can shut up about it.

Clearly, this thread hasn't been a bunch of mutherfuckers jumping down my neck from the beginning.

well it hasn't! it might have gotten intense, but I think most everybody was trying to discuss things with you! yes even Blount! elliptical discussion doesn't mean it's not discussion, heated discussion doesn't mean it's not discussion, even way-overheated discussion still counts!

not "paranoid": just "defensive," maybe justifiably so, but the puzzling thing about getting defensive is that it usually fails to provide much protection/shelter/however one wants to describe what being defensive does.

(please don't take that as 'jumping on you' or something. i'm trying to help ya out)

"I can't think of any other occasional on ilx where someone has had their ass as out and out schooled as ddrake on this thread. and I still think any further 'engagement' with him from any ilxors is tantamount to running up the score."

Yeah, what a "game" it was. I don't really see how my opinion was "owned" at all. Certainly there were minor flaws in my argument, but no more than in anyone else's. And I admitted it when their were and refined my argument par the course. But there was some SERIOUS ganging-up-on-ddrake going on. Not just the cyberstalking, but what amounted to harrassment of ME rather than a discussion of my ideas. Or even a HEATED discussion of my ideas.
See the difference, Ned? (if you're out there?)
I attacked your LIST
You attacked ME.

1) Original poster James picks misleading/provocative thread title and couches what would otherwise be a harmless inquiry about experimental rap in the dangerous area of "rap on the whole is stagnant and I want the newness".
2) The usual suspects mock this. Most of us are all "ok, fine, pfhsgh" because we're familiar with these posters. ddrake initially chimes in with "instruments in rap /= progressive" and gets little if any real hostility.
3) ddrake then mistakes "progressive/experimental" for "white", flings out a "you know that's what you really mean" equivalent ("admit it") and suddenly the tone of Typical ILM Prog-Rap Mockery gets a bit weird
4) Ned sez "because instruments are white! oh wait" and ddrake fires back "U R NOT OF TEH FUNNIE"
5) ddrake: "Seriously though, unless you actually know the hip hop history, which it sounds like you don't, I'd wait to listen to "prog" hip hop. " [emphasis mine]
6) A couple more joke posts, a couple geniune attempts to steer the thread into actual topical coherence ("Dalek?"), J0hn being all "Ned OTM"
7) dd: "Oh give me a break! Dilute, my friends, dilute!" Then he goes onto some snotty "prog is unfun" jibe.
8) Jokes jokes jokes. The nate that is not me says "The twisted part is that some people actually like challenging their brains."
9) dd: "Rush! Yes! Prog stupid! Also read it, motherfuckers!"
10) not me nate: "But Braxton/Cornel/Toni Morrison..."
11) Ned to o. nate: "ddrake will get mad at you now and claim you don't understand hip-hop. You are so burned. *cue ddrake: 'Ha ha, where is your sense of humor, dork, etc.'*"
12) "you're out of your league, donnie."
13) dd shortly later: "Blues People is a more incredible work than anything anyone on ILM has accomplished...a more important work as well. That I can't believe more of you haven't read." [here is where my arrogance alarm goes off.]
14) Ned sums up the crux of the issue: "Remind me again how you've assumed you know what everyone here has read/listened to/thought again? I missed the proof of your omniscience here."
15) Some stupid bullshit ensues
16) Wooster is namedropped
17) Accusations of privacy intrusions fly
18) The thread officially becomes ridiculous
19) Everyone tries to explain to ddrake why they're mad at him
20) ddrake gets mad defensive
21) I forgot to mention, blount has a field day
22) OWNED
23) A failed attempt to return to original discussion in the thread
24) ddrake: "So "whitening" in the case in which I am using it refers to the values inherent in the musicians' musical ideas. White CULTURE rather than white PEOPLE."
25) Oh no
26) nickalicious and scott seward simmer things down somewhat
27) Perry sums everything up neatly
28) Numerous thread-locking requests go out
29) Oh yeah, there's some stuff about Amiri Baraka in here too (c/o J0hn Darn1elle)
30) Someone named "Big Boi" stomps in, says "prog rap is shit!" only in much wordier terms, resorts to name-dropping the Strokes, then eventually disappears
31) "Ned and his ethugs" are mentioned
32) People start backtracking in an attempt to recap this thread
33) This goes on for a while
34) There is a delightful Popeye intermission
35) An ugly goulash of meta-spastic he-said-he-said "no no no I'M RIGHT I WIN" nonsense and arrogant written-in-stone declarations of what various genres TRULY AND REALLY ARE AND AREN'T, DAMN IT
36) This actually goes on for a while
37) http://hipsterdetritus.blogspot.com/cam.gif
38) more pictures, which ddrake calls "unclever"
39) see #35
40) I post this
41) I feel dirty

Congratulations.
I especially like how you mock my posts...i.e. U R NOT OF TEH FUNNIE

and just quote their posts as if they came from the most sensible, polite place in the universe.

Thank you, you've really summed up this thread "accurately."
Someone lock this bullshit.

This thread was at the top of the list of "new answers" when I came back from doing 3 hours of homework, actually.

19) Everyone tries to explain to ddrake why they're mad at him

Was this before or after everyone mocks me?

Definately check out Dalek, David. Especially the split 7" single called Nummer 3 on Bomb Mitte w/ Faust to clock in your number 2 category of sampling.

This came free with the last WIRE Tapper actually.

I need to get some sleep.

This thread is ridiculous...I can understand where I hear so much shit about ILM. Some cliquish motherfuckers some of you are.
Even when "big boi" TOLD you he was agreeing with me, you continued to give me shit.
My initial provocations taken too seriously.
My actual arguments met with jeers from the peanut gallery.
What a stupid bullshit thread this has been.

Now, here come a cavalcade of posts...

ddrake was owned, ddrake is so stupid, etc. etc. etc.
Ned Raggett having thugs! That's crazy! No, no one ganged up on him! ddrake just came and started trouble in our normally pure community!

Christ.

have a good fucking life.

This sentence makes me happy. :-)

So, what's the answer? My feeling is that snidey, snarky comments from regulars don't help. It can create a sense of cliqueiness and safety-in-numbers pack mentality (justifiably, or not). If you've heard it all before, perhaps it would be a good idea to either a) leave the thread as if a swarm of driver ants* were fast approaching, or b) post helpful links to previous discussions, then bow out (some, like Tracer Hand, seem to take this latter option as a matter of course).

*Very scary prospect, if true.

the ideas stated at the top of this thread suck. good ideas in the same vein don't exist that much. aside from kid 606. wait, that isn't clever. yeah, wait til i'm 20. i'll produce something cool as fuck.

the more i think about it and the less i type the more i realize you just want hip hop that isn't made by people who are ghetto but by people who have been through graduate school or something. yeah, anticon is sucking at that cuz they fall into the whitekid hipster ghetto trap. maybe you want to listen to prefuse 73. hahahah

ILXOR in todays Guardian

Sound like a good idea. The generaly quality of all kinds of music would have increased if all musicians had been through graduate school. Mind you, all those European 18th and 19th century classical composers had. :-)

There's lots of hip-hop with extended instrumentalism, in fact there's *gasp* a whole shitload of INSTRUMENTAL HIP-HOP ARTISTS!!! *loud gasp*

James, you may like...

*DJ Shadow
*DJ Spooky
*the afforementioned DJ Vadim
*Invisible Skratch Picklz
(in fact, watch Wave Twisters, an animated film whose entire score - dialog and all - is provided by DJ Q-bert)
*some of the collaborations Buckethead has done with various instrumental hip-hop artists (such as the album Bermuda Triangle he did with DJ Extrakd or the Praxis Transmutations Live album which is a performance by Buckethead & Invisible Skratch Picklz)