I want to stop screwing around and actually learn to play the guitar

^Worked for Steve Jones.

I bought an acoustic a few weeks ago, been playing around with a few random shapes that I like the sound of, including 000220, which apparently is E13sus4. Can I start a song with this chord or do you have to start with the tonic chord?

Can I start a song with this chord

Yes. You can start a song with any chord you want. Joe Meek said it best: "If it sounds right, then it is right."

all songs need to start with a b-minor chord iirc, it's the law

Chuck Berry to thread.

Because each one of songs usually started with a particular "fanfare," as somebody said, such as the augmented chord at the beginning of "School Days."

I came across this cheat sheet to help me with chord progressions, and am a bit confused...
https://www.adsrsounds.com/music-theory-tutorials/music-theory-cheat-sheet/

Question: My verse is in C Major. It says that I can write my chorus in a different key, and that I can use one of C Majors 'neighbours' in the circle of fifths, so F or G. If I take F, and use the same I - IV - V - V progression, I get F Bb C C. Bb isn't part of the C Major scale is it, so if I use a Bb chord in my chorus, won't that sound 'wrong'?

Sorry this probably should have gone in the music theory thread.

No such thing as wrong though, surely?

I thought that but then wondered if I was reading the circle incorrectly.

You seem to be over-thinking this guitar playing thing. Are you a keyboard player by any chance?

Anyway, everyone has their own approach, I don't understand anything about music theory beyond the names of the notes on the fret.

Having the chorus in a different key than the verse is not common practice. But hey you can do what you want

Using a Bb chord (or Major VII) does sound weird since you would expect a diminished 7 chord (B-D-F) but I've seen it used like that in pop music for sure. calstars and Tom are both right, basically

McCartney does this for the middle 8 in Two of Us iirc (altho I guess that's in G?)

That modulates to Bb major from G major, so that's a bit farther. Three of the seven notes are different, whereas in Chris' example - C major modulating to F major - Bb is the only note that's different.

Modulating to a key a fourth away or a fifth away is pretty common, I would say. And as soon as Bb is used, the song will start to suggest that the modulation has occurred, so that is something you can play with.

I should say - once Bb is used, it CAN sound like SOME modulation has taken place. That could be to any key that includes that note.

The other possibility is that Bb can be used as a modal variant. That's also pretty common and can be done without ever really straying from C as the key center.

Like here's a four-chord song in G and they're using F natural all the time. It never sounds like it's in any key other than G.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apGvd765dmk

the F sounds like a power chord w/just two notes (F/C) though which makes it a little easier to get away with

The Beatles' "You've Got to Hide Your Love Away" is also in G. All kinds of F major chords in that and it's the full triad.

The note A shouldn't create a problem, I don't think. It's part of the G major scale and part of three diatonic chords in G major (A minor, D major, and F# diminished).

Tim is correct. If the chorus is in F, you don't need to use the C major collection, even in the strictest 18th century diatonic harmony exercise. b^7 is a common borrowed pitch (modal variant) in any case, even in classical music, let alone 20th century popular music. (Nearly every blues song includes it over the tonic.) "God Only Knows" begins on b^7!

Sund4r (or anyone), you ever hear anyone talk about a "multi-plagal progression" or "secondary plagal progression?" I think that's a pretty common use of the bVII chord, to go from bVII to IV, and that would be a secondary plagal progression.

Similar of course to how we talk about secondary dominants.

Feel like somebody, like me, mentioned that on the theory thread.

Here: Rolling Music Theory Thread

This guy calls it (chorus of the Kinks' "Celluloid Heroes") a IV/IV chord.

http://johndorhauer.com/4-for-iv-part-i-secondary-plagal-progressions/

xp oh nice!

Better yet he calls the C chord in "Hey Joe" (key of E) a IV/IV/IV/IV chord!

I'm pretty sure there was an MTO article about this. I'll look for it.

Sorry, the paper on the other thread I was referring to was first linked here: Rolling Music Theory Thread
and is Rolling Music Theory Thread. I believe you are quite familiar with the author's work.

Aarrgh: http://www.academia.edu/1435121/Triadic_Modal_and_Pentatonic_Patterns_in_Rock_Music

Ah, those are good. It is also touched on Moore, Allan. "The So-Called 'Flattened Seventh' in Rock". Popular Music. Vol. 14, No. 2 (May, 1995), pp. 185-201. Cambridge University Press.

Ha, I bought his book during the heyday of those discussions and he mentions that paper several times.

You seem to be over-thinking this guitar playing thing. Are you a keyboard player by any chance?
Ha yes, how did you guess.

Which one of his books, Blecchs? Analysing Popular Music?

Think the proper title is Song Means, but yeah, that one.

Those are different books - the one Sund4r mentions is a collection with numerous authors.

Okay, start again. Not that one, but the other one whose subtitle is similar to that one's title.

Trying to learn "never going back again". The guy in the video tutorial says it's fairly advanced fingerpicking, well I have a few fingerpicking tunes under my belt and I'm not finding it a problem. Then he says the saving grace is that the left hand is pretty easy. Damn, is my left hand that bad? I can't even make the shapes cleanly,

... let alone have any hope of switching between them quickly enough. Posting this not out of any vain hope for magic hints & tips, but if I do manage to crack it, as proof that persistence pays off.

When I first started learning about bar chords, I thought for sure I would never be able to play something like 'Wave of Mutilation' but the more I tried it, the easier it got. It doesn't happen in the span of one or two practice sessions, but it'll come to you the more you familiarize yourself with the tune.

A smarter man than myself once said, "If you think you've gone too far, just keep going." And I find that's usually a good rule of thumb.

"Never Going Back Again" is fairly challenging, I'd say. Definitely a few notches up from "Blackbird" or "Freight Train". I don't know why he'd say that the left hand part is easy; it's less intuitive than e.g. Zeppelin's acoustic songs. I recommend using a metronome really strictly and slowing it way the fuck down, maybe starting at less than half the original tempo.

Sorry if that's the kind of hint you weren't looking for. It's just the only I was able to learn or teach it.

yeah I do take it slow, although not with a metronome.

my barres are ok for chugging out chords but show their limitations when it comes to fingerstyle. hardest thing in ngba though is one that stretches over four frets, even with a capo on 4 that's ahem a stretch.

damn this flagging app keeps posting too early.

... & the one where I have to fret the top two strings with my little finger, which is apparently too puny and weak.

Pretty difficult tune tbh.

Pretty difficult tune tbh

Aye but I think if I can't get it now I never will. (Where "now' is a period of weeks, probably months.)

A smarter man than myself once said, "If you think you've gone too far, just keep going." And I find that's usually a good rule of thumb

True, I would add "until you know you've gone too far", you can bite off more than you can chew.

So did you stop screwing around and really learn to play the guitar?

If the answer is yes, be sure to come over to Fingerstyle Guitar: Can You Do It?