Swans: Classic or Dud?

Some, but far from all.

I had forgotten that The Burning World was reissued by Water in 2012 and remains in print.

Weird question that I never thought of before, but is Jarboe's age per Wikipedia accurate (January 30, 1970)? I never thought of her as particularly young looking, but that would make her like 14 or 15 when she gets involved with Swans. Wondering if that's possible. Gira born in 1954. Kind of hoping that Wiki has her birthdate wrong.

Still waiting for my copy of the White Light/Love set to arrive, but I also just ordered the reissue of The Burning World from Amazon.

No way is that date of birth accurate.

I'd say it would be about 10 years out. Might be 1960. She was certainly older than me in the mid 80s when i met the band a few times.
Probably still is in fact.

http://www.swans.pair.com/PRESS/int_com.html :

Oh, thats not samples, thats tapes which Jarboe recorded as a little girl, about 12 years old.

The "Her" tape mentions the Grateful Dead playing Piedmont Park "this afternoon" = July 7, 1969.

so... she's from 1957.

/investigative journalism

but she has chosen not to reveal that officially so um, if you get a cease & desist, it wasn't me :-)

ok, it's slightly weird not to have the tracklist anywhere in the 3CD box/packaging & to have to go look it up online but anyway (the booklet only contains the lyrics and "#5, #9, #13 etc originally appeared on World of Skin" etc, not what those tracks might be)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Light_from_the_Mouth_of_Infinity -> "2015 remaster version" for the differences
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_of_Life_%28album%29 -> "background" and "2015 bonus tracks" for CD 2 & 3 details

my head hurts now

can someone tell me the current status of swans song "black hole man"? i have a live recording that's like 19 min long and i was wondering if there was a not-live version of it.

No, the only officially released version at the moment is on The Gate, live, as the second part of "Bring The Sun" (28:16).
(Maybe they'll record a studio version for the 2016 album, I don't know)

hope so!

Larkin Grimm has accused Gira of rape.

https://t.co/iO2IF5x1ZX

Dud

ugh

Don't know if legit:

http://i65.tinypic.com/2jcvbo.png

(Me = not me, obv, just found this being linked to somewhere else)

Larkin has commented further to Pitchfork:

http://pitchfork.com/news/63780-swans-michael-gira-accused-of-rape-by-former-collaborator-larkin-grimm/

I am not in this for vengeance. I am not angry. I do not want Michael Gira to have his life destroyed. If one in four or five women has been raped, we have to acknowledge the possibility that one in five men might be rapists. What are we going to do with them all? Send them to jail for 10 years and cut off their dicks? NO. It is the whole culture that has to change. We have created this epidemic of harassment and disrespect and violence together. We have to end it together.

I believe I will stay off the internet for a few days until this whole thing blows over

Gira has responded.

https://www.facebook.com/mgira/posts/10201368018239159

well that got ugly fast

Made mistake of reading comments to his post.

And for fucks sake, has anyone listened to his songs speaking out against rape??!??
Like · 4 · 13 mins
Dennis Mandarin
Dennis Mandarin EXAAAACTLY
Like · 1 · 13 mins
Dennis Mandarin
Dennis Mandarin Anyone who believes this probably doesn't listen to swans.

^^^^ "but his best friend is black!"

yeah that one stood out

fuck what a depressing story

Gira's wife reacts as well

https://www.facebook.com/coveredwithstars/posts/10206691239732330

god what a mess

Damn :-(

kinda wondering what the hell this "proof" is gonna be

They're claiming it's emails the woman sent to him through the years that show a pattern of vindictiveness and erratic behavior.

Obv that's not "proof" of anything. This is going to be a long, ugly debacle.

I believe I will stay off the internet for a few days until this whole thing blows over

This was the second instance of exactly this kind of announcement on FB I saw this week (curiously enough both involving NY musicians), and would be very surprised if it was the last. And yeah, keep away from the comments if you don't want to get angry.

xpost

Yeah, reading Jennifer Gira's post I was thinking that even if that pattern of behavior is true, it wouldn't exactly be inconsistent with what Grimm is saying. "Traumatized victim behaves erratically, threatens revenge" is not an unlikely scenario.

"actual rapist accuses victim of being mentally unstable & bent on revenge as soon as the truth comes out" is not an unlikely scenario either

otm

yup

the super-gross victim-blaming response is maybe more distasteful than the actual allegations, which were (despite the graphic detail) so couched in qualifications as to be almost polite ('I heard he stopped drinking, so hopefully he doesn't behave like that anymore' = !!)

Oh I don't know about that the actual allegations are pretty gross (esp. the pattern of harassment).

xp ... not that I'm tryna write a thinkpiece about it or anything, but it feels like there's this weird double-bind characterizing our particular cultural moment: people assume that the "rape allegation as character assassination" narrative still makes sense, even as we try to move towards a culture in which the stigma of "being a rapist" is, if not lessened, then certainly different*... in which case, the real crime** is being tethered to an outdated mentality which demands smearing the accuser to protect one's good name

*: because keeping that stigma intact allows us to think of rape as a rare occurrence, perpetrated by insane people
**: "the real crime" = in the eyes of the gossipy internet-driven public sphere that passes character judgments -- obviously from the standpoint of the legal system, the real crime is still rape

anyway, that's the last I'll say on this subject. I'm on the verge of tears listening to The Seer right now. it's been a tough week.

the super-gross victim-blaming response is maybe more distasteful than the actual allegations, which were (despite the graphic detail) so couched in qualifications as to be almost polite ('I heard he stopped drinking, so hopefully he doesn't behave like that anymore' = !!)

― Posts found in a bottle by (bernard snowy)

this was my reaction as well, the stark contrast between Grimm's clear-eyed, very compassionate take on things and Gira's ugly defensive hatefulness is so jarring.

P4K headline on this comes down heavily on Gira's side of things. "Swans' Michael Gira Calls Rape Accusations by Former Collaborator Larkin Grimm a "Slanderous Lie".

Whether they realize it or not, most people seem to pick a side, it's fascinating. Based on preconceptions, artistic achievement, language skills, sometimes based on the photo that accompanies an article.

And I'm guessing often based on sex. My question with accusations like this is always the same, "why would she lie?" I realize that sometimes people falsely accuse other people for a variety of reasons, and that unless all the facts are known, we can't ever really be sure who's being truthful. But unless you're clinically narcissistic and a sociopath, how could lying about something like this be worth the trouble?

kinda wondering what the hell this "proof" is gonna be

― frogbs, Friday, February 26, 2016 8:40 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's not proof she have, it's PROOF

But unless you're clinically narcissistic and a sociopath, how could lying about something like this be worth the trouble?

It seems insane for someone to do that, but it is not unprecedented.

My question with accusations like this is always the same, "why would she lie?" I realize that sometimes people falsely accuse other people for a variety of reasons, and that unless all the facts are known, we can't ever really be sure who's being truthful. But unless you're clinically narcissistic and a sociopath, how could lying about something like this be worth the trouble?

I am not expressing any endorsement of Gira's or Grimm's "side" of this story in what I'm about to say. False accusations of rape when the two people are on a more or less socially equal level are extremely rare. However, there is a subset of accusations leveled at famous men by non-famous women. David Bowie was accused of rape in 1987; the charges were rejected by a grand jury. Conor Oberst was falsely accused, as the link above reveals. I'm sure there are other examples but I'm not about to go looking for them.

My question with accusations like this is always the same, "why would she lie?"

In this case, I'll give it a shot, if you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment (because I have no more idea who is telling the truth than you do): a person desperate to be famous at any cost accuses a public figure of the most despicable, inexcusable, heinous crime there is. Hours later, said public figure has been tried and convicted by the internet, while Pitchfork, Spin, Stereogum, etc all lead with headlines bearing the previously-forgotten-by-almost-everyone name "Larkin Grimm."

I realize that probably reads like some of the disgusting comments section talk you refer to, and while I am loath to even advance such a theory, I mention it because I also don't feel comfortable with the idea that someone can be transformed into a pariah based on a Facebook post. I also wouldn't have felt comfortable commenting on this if Jennifer Gira hadn't spoken out first. I would sooner stay out of it entirely than align myself with an idiotic lynch mob of starstruck dudes blaming the victim. If it happened, it's fucked up and MG should suffer the consequences. But what if it didn't?

I guess I put that scenario in the "sociopathic or too narcissistic to think clearly" file, which other than revenge for something that nobody has yet made public, is the only scenario I see (other than believing the accuser) that explains it. I mean, I HOPE it's not true, for the each of their sakes, but my gut feeling is that there are a lot more people who never report things that really did happen than there are false accusers.