Star Trek: Classic or Dud?

avery brooks is the best

That DS9 spreadsheet (lol) is exactly what I was looking for, thanks so much. Want to attempt a series watch (after TNG) as I've heard so many good things about the late seasons (although I also fell asleep during the pilot). But there's just *so much* of it.

I'm fine with Sisqo b does Quark get less annoying?

*but does*

Quark is an acquired taste -- I was surprised how much I liked the comic Ferengi episodes when I rewatched DS9.

He's good at calling out hu-mons on their bullshit and hypocrisy.

He never annoyed me, but I liked his presence more and more as the show went on. Remember at the time he was a way to add to that anti-Federation "peace and harmony" from the other shows - the character develops bit by bit

Just finished "Skin of Evil". The death of Tasha Yar took me by surprise, especially with her hologram appearing at her funeral to give very specific and poignant goodbyes to everyone present. "If you're seeing this, I must be dead."

Trekonomics:

https://vimeo.com/131823542

Damn "Conspiracy" is insane, took me completely off guard! "Come Picard, you will soon be like us, now let's all sit down to a nice meal ..... of bugs!!!"

yeah that episode is mental. I have hazy memories of it ruining certain meals for me, even a year after it aired.

http://quark.name/images/Quark_Complete_final.jpg

Damn "Conspiracy" is insane, took me completely off guard!

I don't think they ever bettered this arc tbh. show peaked early.

It wasn't an arc though- just one episode wasn't it?

Well that main prick was in an earlier episode as an inspector.

Btw his death was just ..... whaaaaaaa? I was expecting Khan-level grossness and got Scanners instead!

hmm for some reason I had this memory that there was foreshadowing about the episode in previous episodes but apparently I'm wrong there...?

xp

No you're right, there were some spotty attempts earlier in I believe season 2 suggesting infiltration into Starfleet Command, which "Conspiracy" is supposed to conclude.

I always wanted one of the Trek movies (pre-reboot) to follow on Conspiracy.

weren't the borg supposed to be the conspiracy bugs?

no.

The writers originally intended the parasites to be agents of the Borg. Due to the Writers' Strike of 1988 as well as budget cuts, the connection between the Borg and the parasites was never established. (

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Neural_parasite_%2824th_century%29

ha, never knew that

"The Schizoid Man" was so good. Evil Data is creepy! That eulogy was hilarious.

It also shares names with an equally cool episode of The Prisoner.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/7/70/La_Forge_scans_Data.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121212025002&path-prefix=en

The episode where Joe Piscopo teaches Data about comedy is really bad in an early 90s way.

Not including the movies here.

The Next Generation > the original series > Deep Space 9 > Voyager > Enterprise.

DS9 is marred by having a fairly weak first season (though TNG's was even weaker) as well as the inclusion of a completely unnecessary supernatural subplot (the Pah-Wraiths) which kinda sours the final story arc... But at its best (seasons 4 to 6, basically), I'd say it's better than any other Trek. The ensemble of actors is almost as good as TNG's (Avery Brooks isn't Patrick Stewart, but he does get better throughout the series, so I wouldn't let his weird line readings from the pilot distract you too much), with the added bonus that the women in the cast are much better fleshed out than in TNG (Kira is pretty much the most interesting and three-dimensional character in the whole series), and unlike Troi and Crusher they aren't given stereotypically feminine professions. Plus the Wesley counterpart of DS9 is actually a cool character too, showing the kind of potential Wesley might've had if they hadn't made him into a Mary Sue.

As much as like TNG, I do feel that compared to DS9 it suffers from being so episodic, and not being allowed to have longer story arcs. Data and Worf get a decent character arc in TNG (though Worf's story gets even better when he migrates to DS9), and I guess Picard has something of an arc too (learning to appreciate home and family), but mostly everything stays static compared to to the massive changes everyone and everything in DS9 goes through.

And I'm not saying episodic series are necessary better than arc-based ones (some of the best eps in both TNG and DS9 are self-enclosed stories, like "The Inner Light" or "Far Beyond the Stars"), but in TNG is extremely frustrating in that the characters always forget the lessons they learned in the previous episodes. Like, after the episode with Lal, Data almost never mentions her again, even when you'd expect him to (like when he meets Dr. Soong and they discuss families), nor does he try to repeat the experiment while taking into account the mistakes he made with Lal. That's the kind of negative continuity you would not see in a dramatic series anymore, and it's one thing TNG shows its age whereas DS9 still holds up.

On DS9, from Penumbra to What You Leave Behind is the single best string of episodes and story arc of any ST series.

If it didn't also include the Pah-Wraith subplot, I'd agree... But in that plotline we have, amongst other things, an ANCIENT MAGIC BOOK which needs to be ANOINTED WITH BLOOD so that you can read its SECRET MAGICAL MESSAGE. Seriously, fuck that shit, it has nothing to with what Star Trek should be. (Even stupider is the finale, where the main Dominion plot comes down to a Star Trek style, shades-of-grey humanist conclusion, whereas the Pah-Wraith plot ends with a final fight between GOOD AND EVIL in the Caves of DOOM.)

no tildes no credibility

DS9 is marred by having a fairly weak first season (though TNG's was even weaker)

I was surprised how enjoyable the first season of TNG is - I mean, yes, qualitatively it's not the best, but there's still plenty of cool (and cheesy-cool) stuff. For me, "The Child" in S2 was the first genuinely unwatchable episode.

Btw his death was just ..... whaaaaaaa? I was expecting Khan-level grossness and got Scanners instead!

Just hit "Samaritan Snare" in the rewatch, this bit is definitely the most nightmare-fuel moment since "Conspiracy"

http://41.media.tumblr.com/d4220de03be89153c634ad3cb85c4d65/tumblr_nwsrhl9WUb1ufg9h8o2_1280.png
http://40.media.tumblr.com/6285e4c93cfcd04fd61b7862b1842cd0/tumblr_nwsrhl9WUb1ufg9h8o3_1280.png

The red doctor-suits in TNG were so weird... I can't imagine the symbolicism of colours would've changed so much in 300 years that whoever designed those suits would've been a-ok with red instead of some cooler, more neutral colour.

Following that ds9.xls posted upthread turns DS9 into a work of unadulterated genius.

I dunno, I thought it'd be a just a list of good episodes, but apparently it based on which episodes relate to the main Dominion War story arc... But the show had other arcs and good stand-alone episodes too, so the list gives a "no" rating to eps like "Captive Pursuit", "Little Green Men", "Children of Time", "It's in the Cards", "It's Only a Paper Moon", and "Take Me Out to the Holosuite", all of which are good episodes, or at least fun to watch, they just don't advance the big storyline.

Also, while story arc that consists of the last ep of season 1, and the first three episodes of season 2 is kinda uneven, it has some good moments, and it lays the groundwork for the Bajoran political themes that continue all the way to the finale, so I'd say it's essential watching too. Even though the Dominion War later began to, er, dominate the whole series, the Bajor/Cardassia plots were an interesting part of it too, especially since they allowed DS9 to explore various ethical questions relating to post-occupation politics, the thin line between violent resistance and terrorism, the difficulty of forgiveness, the role of religion in governance, etc.

Agreed. Those aspects are a huge aspect of what made it a great series.
Maybe it's nostalgic masochism, but I feel like you gotta go through it all to really appreciate the series and accept that they were made in a different time and had to be paced slower. You couldn't make TV back then the way you can now. I'd argue DS9 was a show that led to shows with greater use of continuity and less use of standalones (Sopranos and Buffy didn't come in the end of the decade)

xxxp maybe the producers were just big Cronenberg fans?

http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/709071/23088455/1373515253447/deadringers-demo.jpg?token=zu4x3cSINBrjsb6kUVA1uoyejGo%3D

I'd argue DS9 was a show that led to shows with greater use of continuity and less use of standalones (Sopranos and Buffy didn't come in the end of the decade)

This is an interesting argument... Before DS9 and Babylon 5, were there any TV series that had multi-season arcs? I can't really think of any examples, at least if you exclude "will they or won't they" type of romantic plots, like Sam and Diane in Cheers. Even in Twin Peaks the network made them solve the murder mystery midway into season 2, I guess because they were afraid people would get tired of that arc if it continued much longer.

Maybe Hill Street Blues (never watched) and Homicide (sort of) did this

Sex in the City deserves a mention in terms of series continuity stuff, altho I don't think it was the first

sitcoms are another deal... besides, beaten by Seinfeld years earlier on that front

i do wonder why 1998 was the year that networks were like hey it's OK to do this now

haha yeah what was the driver there

dvd box sets?

It was definitely the advent of technology, but I don't think complete seasons of shows were available yet in the late '90s.

Anyway, multi-episode arcs have been around forever in the form of soap operas.

But the show had other arcs and good stand-alone episodes too, so the list gives a "no" rating to eps like "Captive Pursuit", "Little Green Men", "Children of Time", "It's in the Cards", "It's Only a Paper Moon", and "Take Me Out to the Holosuite", all of which are good episodes, or at least fun to watch, they just don't advance the big storyline.

I agree with this. Some of the more lighthearted episodes are essential to me because they offer a much needed contrast to the darkness of the majority of the story arcs. Take Me Out to the Holosuite being a good example. And I think DS9 actually did funny well. This makes the whole series required for me, to just watch the Dominion war arc you're not going to get the full picture of the characters.

xp i agree that ds9 spreadsheet leaves out a lot of good episodes, i was just linking it for shakey who seemed offput from doing a complete watchthrough

i still haven't finished the full watchthrough myself, currently almost done w/ season 6 which has been pretty excellent

also as far as ds9 standalone eps go i really enjoy the "let's torture o'brien" episodes that happen once or twice per season e.g. "Whispers" "Visionary" "Hard Time"

haha yes!!