― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 11:50 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 14 June 2004 11:50 (nineteen years ago) link
The Coventry coat of arms *should* feature Lady Godiva.
― MarkH (MarkH), Monday, 14 June 2004 11:54 (nineteen years ago) link
They also make for great weapons
― ken c (ken c), Monday, 14 June 2004 12:13 (nineteen years ago) link
I love you dog latin, for summing up my general state of mind over the last few weeks in ways that I never could.
England's youth are the equivalent to other countries doddering old war veterans, especially when football is involved.
― Oliver Pyper (stickthrower), Monday, 14 June 2004 12:35 (nineteen years ago) link
― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 14 June 2004 12:39 (nineteen years ago) link
I wish the US flag had been this. Also cool:
http://home.att.net/~bzygo2/nh97.jpg
― Jon in R'lyeh (ex machina), Monday, 14 June 2004 12:40 (nineteen years ago) link
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Monday, 14 June 2004 12:49 (nineteen years ago) link
― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 14 June 2004 12:52 (nineteen years ago) link
― Jon in R'lyeh (ex machina), Monday, 14 June 2004 12:53 (nineteen years ago) link
happiness, more or less, it's about cutting trees, something in my liberty.
oh my my!
― ken c (ken c), Monday, 14 June 2004 12:56 (nineteen years ago) link
― Anna (Anna), Monday, 14 June 2004 12:56 (nineteen years ago) link
― ken c (ken c), Monday, 14 June 2004 12:58 (nineteen years ago) link
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Monday, 14 June 2004 13:08 (nineteen years ago) link
I called a French player a name last night. It was Willy Spagbol.
― Madchen (Madchen), Monday, 14 June 2004 13:13 (nineteen years ago) link
does that include wooden legs?
― ken c (ken c), Monday, 14 June 2004 13:16 (nineteen years ago) link
i'm really happy when Germany lose. i don't like to see them succeed. nor Brazil. only because it feels predictable and i long for hierarchal change. nothing against the nation, it's people or it's customs - quite the opposite in fact.
― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 13:22 (nineteen years ago) link
― Madchen (Madchen), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― ken c (ken c), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:10 (nineteen years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:12 (nineteen years ago) link
― ken c (ken c), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:16 (nineteen years ago) link
― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:17 (nineteen years ago) link
― MarkH (MarkH), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:21 (nineteen years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:23 (nineteen years ago) link
― chris (chris), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:23 (nineteen years ago) link
but still a tasty one right?
― chris (chris), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:24 (nineteen years ago) link
― MarkH (MarkH), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:26 (nineteen years ago) link
― Madchen (Madchen), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:31 (nineteen years ago) link
Blaming sport for jingoism and nationalism is like blaming religion for war, there's the assumption that the jingoism would'nt find another outlet if football, cricket, rugby or whatever had never existed.
Kate, have you ever been to an international match? Did you see the English fans walking up and down the stands in the last World Cup carrying Japanese and Korean children on their shoulders? Have you watched the buildup to a big match and seen footage of both sets of fans mingling amicably in the streets and bars beforehand? Have you seen the hordes of fans getting colorfully dressed up and using the event as an excuse for a massive party? Chances are you haven't - you'd rather do pretty much anything else.
Of course there's been crowd trouble and hooliganism and riots in the past, unfortunately there will be in the future, but these events are in the minority, and its hardly the 1980s all over again. What you're doing is targeting this massive area and going "its ritualised warfare, its all divisive and evil and wrong" when sport can be as much a unifying factor as a divisive one. Look at the lineup in the average Premiership fixture and see how many people of how many nationalities are inspiriring such adoration from the fans.
What you're doing is like blaming the whole of 60s rock music for the violence at Altamont. I'm not saying you should have any interest in football, but you're letting your distaste for the subject colour your whole perception of something of which you are largely, if not entirely, ignorant.
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:39 (nineteen years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:40 (nineteen years ago) link
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:40 (nineteen years ago) link
― chris (chris), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:41 (nineteen years ago) link
― Michael White (Hereward), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:42 (nineteen years ago) link
― Apostrophe Catastrophe (kate), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:42 (nineteen years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:44 (nineteen years ago) link
The ice dancing hooligans are a fearsome bunch.
― Michael White (Hereward), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:46 (nineteen years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:48 (nineteen years ago) link
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:50 (nineteen years ago) link
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:53 (nineteen years ago) link
― Apostrophe Catastrophe (kate), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:56 (nineteen years ago) link
If you said "there's still far too much of this kind of behaviour in football and it should be stamped out - these attitudes, and the way in which the game deals with it, have to change" I would have agreed with you. Its still unfair to use it as a stick to beat the whole game with, especially as football has done as much, if not more, to counter racism than it has to foster it.
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:02 (nineteen years ago) link
There's something wrong with the English - I'll happily concede we're a bunch of cunts who can't handle drink and every foreign despatch since the Romans has said so. That's a root cause - there's a bellicosity in our culture that feeds off a generalised exceptionalism. Drink briongs it out most, when in truth, there's far more un-exceptioanlism out there. If anything demonstrates the Europeanisation of England, it's football.
― Dave B (daveb), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:07 (nineteen years ago) link
Is it wrong that I burst out laughing? Or that the Swiss fans did too?
I don't know what's wrong or right anymore, me.
― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:10 (nineteen years ago) link
Except I don't think these attitudes *can* be stamped out of football, because football *IS* symbolic conflict, it is absolutely irreprepreably tied together with us/them attitudes, tribal groupings, competition and all sorts of other things I am inherently suspicious of.
You can say "oh, let's work on making it *symbolic* hatred and *symbolic* violence" but you cannot take the inherent tribalism and competition and symbolism of violence out of football.
Hence I find it vile.
― Apostrophe Catastrophe (kate), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:15 (nineteen years ago) link
― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:18 (nineteen years ago) link
― Apostrophe Catastrophe (kate), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:20 (nineteen years ago) link
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:21 (nineteen years ago) link
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:22 (nineteen years ago) link