Psychoactive Substances: Rolling UK Politics in The Neo-Con Era

St Helen’s South and Whiston

come one the New Statesman, get it together

... though not as much as the fact that the Great British public lap it up.

One question that's been playing on my mind, looking back from this vantage point, is how much our situation in 2015 has to do with the kind of people who killed Sophie Lancaster, who was my age:

While returning home, Lancaster and Maltby were subjected to a "vicious mob attack" from "a large group of people" between 01:10 hours and 01:20 hours on Saturday, 11 August 2007, at the skate park area of Stubbylee Park, Bacup (grid reference SD865218).[3] The couple were walking home and came across a group of teenagers at the entrance to the park.[7] The group followed them, but there was no trouble until some of them suddenly assaulted Robert Maltby without provocation. When he was knocked unconscious, the gang attacked Sophie Lancaster, who was trying to protect him by cradling him in her arms. A 15-year-old witness told police: "They were running over and just kicking her in the head and jumping up and down on her head." One distraught witness used a mobile phone to call for emergency services saying: "We need... we need an ambulance at Bacup Park, this mosher has just been banged because he’s a mosher."[8] Witnesses revealed that afterwards, "The killers celebrated their attack on the goths — or "moshers" - by telling friends afterwards that they had "done summat (something) good," and claiming: "There's two moshers nearly dead up Bacup park — you wanna see them — they're a right mess."[9]

That's a teenage girl being kicked to death by kids who, let's be honest, came from families that were long-term benefit claimants and who, had they not been sent to prison, would have just continued along those lines; and that attack was just normal, just the sort of thing that used to go on at least once a month with kids at my school; I myself was a victim of such an attack, except my attackers got frightened off in time. (I got concussion though and still get the occasional hallucinations and deafness and blackouts years later.) Lancaster's killers may not have intended to kill exactly, but they had no problem with doing enough violence to kill.

I know someone who lived in Wales who was hounded out of her home, I've met a Morrocan man who, when he lived in Liverpool 7, got dogshit put through his letterbox every day and had dogs set on him and his wife and kids when they went out.

I know I'm talking about the most evil behaviour, of some discrete individuals, within the huge sea of people who one way or another need social security to help, where a neoliberal economy cannot or will not employ them. (This has included me for several long periods.) We all know that confusing the part for the whole is unreasonable, and that the monstering of 'scroungers and chavs and benefit cheats' etc is counter-factual.

Still though: when I think back to the eyes of my attackers, which as I recall were very piggish and tight and the eyes were all pupil and no white, when I remember that I meant about as much to them as an insect, I have a strong brief feeling that it doesn't matter if they get kicked off JSA, and starve, doesn't matter if they get gentrified out of wherever they live; after all, I hold down a job and like drinking coffee and reading books, and am either neutral or good to the people around me 99% of the time ... but send them to the food bank, then shut it down, why not? Really should I have to pay taxes on the off chance some of them will reform?

Then of course I come back to my senses. But I think a lot of people who got the treatment from 'chavs' are caught up in the hate spiral still, a lot of people in my office certainly, a lot of people I overhear, and not just ppl who shared my taste for stupid trenchcoats and t shirts circa 2003, but totally normal people who made the mistake of asking a neighbour to turn their music down. I struggle to 'organise' this: are people who've been in real conflict with real scum to be forgiven or not for hating 'people on benefits'?

Maybe not quite the right thread, but given we're stuck with this shit for five years it seems we can/should think through this?

Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever, what does the benefits system have to do with any of that?

Yeah, "let's be honest" seems to be working in its other mode of "let's focus on a detail I've made up to match my prejudices".

http://imgs.littlewhitelies.co.uk/uploads/2012/10/shock-corridor.jpg

"Would it really matter if one of these men died?"

I suppose cardamon is doing us the service of demonstrating how the very notion of a benefit claimant has been demonised, as if we weren't quite sure (n.b. I post to a football forum, and sheesh howdy)

solitary posts that effortlessly clown you for the rest of your brief online presence

Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever, what does the benefits system have to do with any of that?

― holger sharkey (Tom D.),

Very little in reality but quite a lot in the imaginary

Yeah, "let's be honest" seems to be working in its other mode of "let's focus on a detail I've made up to match my prejudices".

It is possible that these kids were all millionaires on a day trip to Bacup, I'll concede that

"Would it really matter if one of these men died?"

What I was trying to do there was dramatise what I called a brief feeling of total callousness towards someone. Everyone I know irl who actually supports the benefits cuts reaches for justification to some situation they had with 'chavs', and the anecdote they choose gets held up as a sort of totem. What I'm saying is that due to getting me head kicked in, I can relate to some extent with what such people are doing, the idea of getting revenge on the benefits people (who have been melded with 'violent people') is indeed a potent drug.

I dunno, based on the reactions here, you lot must either have had similar experiences but nobly forgiven and never want revenge just a little bit, or just never had similar experiences?

feels as if the phrase 'ivory tower' is going be deployed within a short space of time

Everyone I know irl who actually supports the benefits cuts reaches for justification to some situation they had with 'chavs'

this is confirmation bias. however vindictive ppl feel towards individuals I think they have some more realistic sense of the venn diagram of head-kickers and benefits claimants

It is possible that these kids were all millionaires on a day trip to Bacup, I'll concede that

better than concede, maybe do a bit of research?

i was hoping you were drunk when you posted. wishing harm and misery - just for a moment! - on a large socioeconomic group of people because you had a bad personal experience with a few people from that group...yes that happens irl and people use those arguments in real life. it's a common aspect of every kind of bigotry.

http://www.theonion.com/article/recently-mugged-friend-a-racist-all-of-a-sudden-4827

xxp

What I was trying to do there was dramatise what I called a brief feeling of total callousness towards someone.

And what's more callous than cheering on as vulnerable people are stripped of benefits and doomed to homelessness?

I'd find more convincing an argument that placed the kind of brutish nihilistic violence and thuggery you describe on the same continnuum as middle england's loathing of people on benefits, both being symptoms of the widespread tendency towards callousness and and actual cruelty which does seem to be on the rise among all strata of society.

(yeah, yeah trenchant, whatev)

what you're talking about is the symptomatic effect of tarring everyone with the same brush, which does happen, and the media perpetuates this as well. but there's a long long history of casting poor people as something to be feared. you hear about 'rough estates', 'dodgy areas', 'places you wouldn't want to walk around at night' in towns and cities all the time, and to some extent it's not down to hysteria or snobbery; they're likely to be fairly dangerous places to go (but maybe not as much as they're made out).

the right-wing takes the stance that poorer people are violent and dangerous by nature; that they are in their predicament because of an inherent propensity to break laws and cause trouble. from this angle, there's a natural inclination to think of these 'undesirables' as less-than human and to enforce retributive sanctions on them (such as cutting welfare etc). hating on 'chavs' therefore becomes a noble sport because they are the ones who are ostensibly ruining society with their 'violent' 'lifestyles'. so welfare cuts get supported and notions of 'lifestyle' get upheld and the vicious circle is complete.

This is an unfair pile-on really in that Cardamon is fully aware that these feelings are wrong and pushes them out of his head, which is more than you can say for huge swathes of the population, including some working class people and even including some benefit claimants.

I mean slashing benefits is hardly going to make a cycle of poverty, crime and violence any better is it?

^

I can relate to some extent with what such people are doing, the idea of getting revenge on the benefits people (who have been melded with 'violent people') is indeed a potent drug

This mixture of blind spite and lack of perspective is eerily similar to the mindset of the young murderers you describe upthread. Presumably you'll want to find out what trauma they have been through in their lives before deciding whether it's somewhat understandable to want them, and a huge swathe of the least privileged people in the country, to be wiped out.

I dunno, based on the reactions here, you lot must either have had similar experiences but nobly forgiven and never want revenge just a little bit, or just never had similar experiences?

The desire for revenge against someone who has harmed you is perfectly understandable, automatically extrapolating that out to millions of other people is laughably egotistical.

but it happens and a lot of people think this way, is what cardamom is saying.

Having a brief, inappropriately vindictive emotional reaction to a traumatic experience is one thing. Believing yourself fully justified and allowing it to dominate your thinking moving forward is quite another. It's the latter that constitutes bigotry to me.

it's the definition of bigotry through and through and it seeps through society, permeating thought at every level.

This mixture of blind spite and lack of perspective is eerily similar to the mindset of the young murderers you describe upthread.

Yep.

widespread tendency towards callousness and and actual cruelty which does

shout out to me for repetition of 'and' making it seem like I'm about to burst into tears there

I think you have to meet victims of violence with some tenderness, upbraiding people for their residual grievances can be monstrous & is not at all helpful

xxp I genuinely had no idea that 'chavs beat me up when I was a kid' was a common reason for people supporting benefit cuts. Does David Cameron have Korn to thank for his slim majority?

xxp I genuinely had no idea that 'chavs beat me up when I was a kid' was a common reason for people supporting benefit cuts. Does David Cameron have Korn to thank for his slim majority?

― Blandford Forum, Wednesday, July 15, 2015 12:06 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

'muslims bombed my city' is a key reason for people to act aggressively or fearfully towards foreigners, and a knock-on effect is support for immigration sanctions, even if statistically immigrants don't have even a fraction of the negative impact on the country as the media makes out. so maybe?

i was hoping you were drunk when you posted.

Ditto. I've mugged twice, once w/ violence and burgled twice and never once did I think, "Those bastards were on benefits", I just cannot imagine what you are thinking in linking your personal experience of crime without how much fucking tax you're paying, are you sure you're not drunk?

Nah I think fear of violence (or fear of violence towards someone's children) is more prevalent and more pernicious in terms of encouraging this sort of attitude than actual experiences of violence are. Violent crime rates have been going down for two decades but people seem more afraid than ever.

In any case, 'chav' ≠ benefits claimant. Very often (usually?) the identification the prejusice is based on will simply be wrong.

I've mugged twice, once w/ violence and burgled twice

badman lol

Lol, I've BEEN mugged twice that should be.... but then I did grow up in a council estate and I have been on benefits so you know what I'm capable of.(xxp)

I did grow up in a council estate and I have been on benefits

Then you have actual lived experience that contradicts the sort of reaction we're talking about, in a way that most of the people we're discussing here don't.

getting righteous with people about their prejudices seems like a poor substitute for acknowledging pain and providing a degree of empathy and openness that might lead to some sort of healing. telling people they are too damaged is not a great look

Really don't think almost any benefit bashing is coming from a place of genuine pain. More like callousness and kicking-down cruelty.

I doubt George Osborne or Iain Duncan Smith ever got a kicking for wearing a trenchcoat instead of a tracksuit.

Ditto. I've mugged twice, once w/ violence and burgled twice and never once did I think, "Those bastards were on benefits", I just cannot imagine what you are thinking in linking your personal experience of crime without how much fucking tax you're paying, are you sure you're not drunk?

― holger sharkey (Tom D.), Wednesday, July 15, 2015 12:14 PM (47 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

But maybe that's because you possess the critical faculties not to make those kinds of illogical leaps? Not everyone does.
'People on benefits', as they're portrayed by the current government and the popular media who support it, = 'scroungers', 'skivers', 'wasters', 'drug-addicts', 'hoodies', 'chavs', 'thugs' etc... and the welfare system is portrayed as abetting such 'lifestyles'. It goes back to the idea that claimants are intrinsically bad people and that they're naturally inclined to carry out acts of violence; a zombie epidemic of underclass benefit claimants who need their benefits taken away (which by some huge leaps of logic) will somehow lift their curse...? I never understood the last bit, but it's common propaganda.

I'm thinking a little more broadly re: bigotry & violence, but if people do have a visceral loathing for people on benefits then moral superiority isn't going to address it

at every turn I am demonised and my choices/chances limited may as well mug/beat up one of these privileged twats today

today I have been mugged/beaten up these monsters should be systematically exterminated

but if people do have a visceral loathing for people on benefits then moral superiority isn't going to address it

you propose... moral inferiority?

Seriously, what?

one irony here is that violent crime has actually been falling for yonks

I don't think moralising is helpful. tom d saying how many times he's been a model victim is reminiscent of benefit sceptics talking about how they strived their way out of unemployment, neither is of any use to the people being addressed

Numbers of Channel 4 documentaries about people on benefits meanwhile have risen dramatically.

tom d saying how many times he's been a model victim

Nice one, cunt.

You're saying the fact that didn't associate the perpetrators of those crimes with the benefits system makes me a 'model victim'? Are you kidding me?

Largely sympathetic documentaries xpost

thought you had established yourself as a sufficiently robust character to handle that

Which means what exactly?

I don't think moralising is helpful.

It's a moral issue though afaic. I don't loathe scounger-bashing rhetoric because I think it's sub-optimal from the point of view of economic efficiency.

Largely sympathetic documentaries

lololololololol can see why you wanted yr name removed from that one

Largely sympathetic documentaries xpost

― AlanSmithee, Wednesday, July 15, 2015 12:43 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink