Taking Sides: Atheism vs. Christianity

in the beginning, this was a landfill thread.

consciousness is complex but it's hard for me to say it's likely to not be a product of "physical" processes

Scare quotes there highly appropriate. Hey go on without me by all means but I feel like i should bump the consciousness thread to explain and defend my position against charges of magical thinking. Whenever I have a spare moment which is less often these days and maybe not soon.

I think if I went full atheist I'd have to accept determinism as well. Probably bc both atheism and determinism are these ideas about reality that make the most intellectual sense to me. Like if you don't believe in God bc there's no evidence it exists surely the same could be said about free will. A phenomenology of feeling like you have free will isn't submittable for the same reason prophetic revelation of God isn't submittable.

I actually meant to take the quotes out of that last comment, sorry about that.

xp

i think there's an arguable difference between being mistaken about what i feel about myself and what i believe about something "outside" myself (depending on yr faith i guess)

but yeah part of the appeal/connect with atheism and strict determinism is based on an apparent logical consistency. but then logic isn't strictly "physical" in this sense i guess.

either way i can't envision a plausible morality under determinism, but as i said a bit ago, there are determinist theisms just as much as determinist non-theisms

defend my position against charges of magical thinking

If this is about my magicians comment I didn't mean it as a slight. I have a lot of respect for magicians and see their work as contributing to the foundations of modern science in every field including chemistry, biology, astronomy, toxicology, climate change, statistics/market speculation, theoretical physics, global economics, etc. It is magical thinking to think that we can observe the world and understand it and use that understanding to change it through our will.

O_O

I love you all. Outic, Noodle, Mordy, Bagel, Tom D you are fantastic, lovely people in your heart. I know it. Hate an anger is just another expression of love. I love you. Remember to love you too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0J4kPooJf0
LOVEISINDIVISIBLE

Arctic noon sunlight
Glimmering off the snowtop
Raccoon Tanuki?

healing power of ilx

NV, from the pov of rigorous take-no-prisoners logic why distinguish between an internal process you have no evidence for and an external process you have no evidence for?

Was gonna say...

i wasn't very clear - i think it might be possible to make the distinction meaningfully, but not necessarily from a strict determinist perspective

People have to act, and have to base their actions on something. Even a strict atheist has to make assumptions about what is more self-evident and what is less self-evident

like they're fine casting off the spectre of divine agency, but have trouble accepting that their own agency is an illusion, a construct

Probably because they feel it's more self-evident that they exist than that God does. Also, that it's more reasonable to assign agency to a being that is biologically defined than to one that is not

tbh i think there's a broad question about the extent to which people "take decisions" in a conscious, reflective way during the course of an average day

because as much as i have a feeling of having free will, i also experience feelings of being inattentive, impulsive, asleep at the wheel, stuck etc etc

at least you can say that the cumulative effect of the conscious decisions you have made has put you in a better place than where total impulsiveness would have landed you..?

also could be argued that many of our "impulsive" decisions derive from previously thought-out decisions

i'm not a determinist so if i'm getting this wrong i apologize but i would think all your 'conscious' processes + thinking are also determined.

alternatively consciousness is a contingent process constantly justifying the actions you are already determined to take (and there is some science that suggests this is the case). in which case maybe free will occurs in the creative explanation for why you did what you were already going to do. that would be funny if the only thing we freely controlled were interpretations of our bodies.

The Labatt Experiment

Libet?

The by now unstoppable flood of editions of works by Paracelsus on medicine and natural philosophy issuing from the Basel, Cologne and Strassburg presses began to experience increasing opposition from the celebrities of orthodox medicine, although they used not so much the weapons of their own discipline, but rather arguments drawn from theology. They were the first to recognize the explosive theological force of these works and were furthermore convinced (as Rotondò has formulated it) that the most effective defence of a pattern of thought which the academic world then considered to be scientifically orthodox should have to begin with the defence of its theological framework.15 Almost without exception they were men from the medical world, such as Gasser, Stenglin, Weyer, Solenander, Marstaller or Reussner, who in the first years of the so-called ‘Paracelsan Revival’ loudly proclaimed the charge of heresy with respect to Paracelsus and his followers.16 This campaign reached a climax in 1571-1572 with the outpouring of malice and defamation in the first part of Thomas Erastus’ Disputationes de medicina nova Paracelsi . Erastus did not hesitate to demand capital punishment for the adherents of the magus Paracelsus, and he also tried to influence one of the most authoritative theologians of the reformed party, the Zürich leader Heinrich Bullinger, in this respect: ‘I swear to you by everything that is holy to me: neither Arius, Photin, nor Mohammed, nor any Turk or heretic were ever so heretical as this unholy magus’.17

Neither Erastus nor any of his fellow defamers had for that matter read a single word of the theological works of Paracelsus. Apparently they did not really consider this necessary, because, after all, they had all read Oporinus’s notorious letter of 1565 with the anecdote relating to Paracelsus’ religious way of life.18 But even Oporinus’ nephew, the cautious Theodor Zwinger, who a few years later came to acknowledge the greatness of Paracelsus as a result of his thorough study of Hippocrates, and publicized his views to the horror of his academic colleagues, appears at first to have hardly occupied himself with the theological writings of Paracelsus. In 1564 he wrote in a letter often copied at the time:

‘I do not wish to comment on the morals of Paracelsus, as I find this unnecessary; because whether good or bad, they have no impact on his scientific approach. On the other hand, I can only testify concerning Paracelsus’ piety and godliness, that he has written many works on religion, which are even today treasured by his followers as priceless jewels. But it is common knowledge, that Paracelsus was a declared atheist.’19

http://www.ritmanlibrary.com/collection/comparative-religion/theophrastia-sancta-paracelsianism-as-a-religion-in-conflict-with-the-established-churches/

alternatively consciousness is a contingent process constantly justifying the actions you are already determined to take (and there is some science that suggests this is the case). in which case maybe free will occurs in the creative explanation for why you did what you were already going to do. that would be funny if the only thing we freely controlled were interpretations of our bodies.

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 8, 2015 7:33 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this possibility has always been frightening to me

Been reading about tax codes, charity, parsonage exemptions, etc. I wish public atheists would make a bigger stink about this stuff rather than arguing metaphysics. Churches do not have a monopoly on charity, yet they are so plugged in via tax loopholes and laws like "Charitable Choice" that I think it does a lot of harm overall. I think for a lot of people (politicians and evangelicals mostly) it de-legitimizes charity that takes place outside of the church.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charitable_choice

If you are a minister, your personal rent and utilities are also tax-free. No other charitable organization can say the same, it would be nice if for instance you got free rent and utilities if you ran a food bank.

The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency.

http://www.irs.gov/Charities-%26-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Exempt-Purposes-Internal-Revenue-Code-Section-501(c)(3)

Emphasis mine.

seems to me that only someone who views the practice of religion as inimical to society would object to including it on that list. just be happy that "advancement of education or science" is included, too.

Some jumping to conclusions there did anyone say practicing religion was harmful?

Education benefits all, not just those who go to school. Science benefits all, not just scientists. Advancing a particular religion benefits the members of that particular religion.

You may want to put some foundation under those assertions. They are not self-evident.

As far as I can see, any mechanism by which my education benefits a gas station attendant in Georgia, or by which a scientist studying tropical beetles benefits a nurse's aide in Wisconsin is bound to be vague enough and indirect enough that a similar mechanism can be postulated for a Buddhist meditating in Tennessee benefiting you or me.

if you're in favour of charities receiving govt funding it seems dubious to discriminate against those with a religious focus, & it's unclear how you would define it. in lots of places the church is one of the only things going on, there aren't necessarily always alternatives getting overlooked

If the religious groups are giving to charity what is stopping them from doing so using the same mechanism available to all secular charities?

Religious groups typically provide the charity - meal services, food banks, shelters etc.

Idk this seems like a p minor issue to get angry about imo

Well, I'm not sure it's so minor. I think I recall with Mitt Romney, he defended his low tax-payments because he payed tither and gave to mormon charities, who for instance used that money to fight against gay marriage. With the way 'religious freedom' is used in the US at this moment, I think it's ok to stop and wonder whether it's really ipso facto charitable to support.

I'm christian, btw, and most atheists I know seem to think they are twice as intelligent as they really are. But still.

I am not angry about it, just think in the context of "Atheism vs. Christianity" thread, perhaps atheists would be better off debating how US law continually benefits religious charities rather than debating philosophy or metaphysics. I have given to a church charity this year, I think it is awesome that churches do charity, and think it makes the world a better place.

But in the context of this thread, which is about the public debate between atheism and Christianity, I wish the very real laws and effects of those laws were debated over things that happened centuries or millenia ago.

It is also not a minor issue. 100% of US presidents have been Christian, a vast majority of the congressional lawmaking body have been Christian, and most authority figures in general have been in the US. They are creating public policy that effects everyone, not just Christians. Those policies are often biased in their favor. Look at the recent attacks on birth control, women's reproductive rights, gay marriage, etc. Look at US military policy, which is heavily fixated on a very particular religious group.

When people donate to religious groups, it's tax-deductible. Churches don't pay property taxes on their land or buildings. When they buy stuff, they don't pay sales taxes. When they sell stuff at a profit, they don't pay capital gains tax. If they spend less than they take in, they don't pay corporate income taxes. Priests, ministers, rabbis and the like get "parsonage exemptions" that let them deduct mortgage payments, rent and other living expenses when they're doing their income taxes. They also are the only group allowed to opt out of Social Security taxes (and benefits).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/08/22/you-give-religions-more-than-82-5-billion-a-year/

They estimate (in 2013) that churches get $85 billion a year in these subsidies. Churches own $600 billion worth of real estate they do not pay taxes on.

The church is the largest single charitable organisation in the country. Catholic Charities USA, its main charity, and its subsidiaries employ over 65,000 paid staff and serve over 10m people. These organisations distributed $4.7 billion to the poor in 2010, of which 62% came from local, state and federal government agencies.

http://www.economist.com/node/21560536

That means $1.7 billion of the church's own money was given to charity. Roughly 2 percent of the national subsidy they receive from taxpayers was given to the poor. Churches do not have to report their income so there is no real way of knowing how much they take in in addition to government subsidies. The amount is likely much lower than that.

just think in the context of "Atheism vs. Christianity" thread, perhaps atheists would be better off debating how US law continually benefits religious charities rather than debating philosophy or metaphysics

They do. You're welcome.

it would be nice if for instance you got free rent and utilities if you ran a food bank

Yea, verily, hath not our toll been paid back tenfold when the Lord commandeth we make food, not bombes?

I thought this was a q of charities/ventures run by religious groups rather than religious institutions donating money, which seems less complicated

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/number-of-muslims-worldwide-expected-to-nearly-equal-number-of-christians-by-2050-religiously-unaffiliated-will-make-up-declining-share-of-worlds-population/

With the exception of Buddhists, all of the world’s major religious groups are poised for at least some growth in absolute numbers in the coming decades. Atheists, agnostics and other people who do not affiliate with any religion – though also increasing in absolute numbers – will make up a declining share of the world’s total population.

sorry atheists :(

ffffffuck.

time for richard dawkins to launch a quiverfull campaign and get duggar-size broods of atheist families firing out kids at every opportunity

Richard Dawkins ‏@RichardDawkins 1h1 hour ago

The #fuckforscience campaign begins here! #barebackin'

really? I"d heard religious affiliations were shrinking worldwide. hmm.

we know that high quality of modern living standards correlate to lowered birth rates and vice-versa so it's not really surprising

pewforum