HEY JEWS

I'm not suggesting you know nothing about the OT. I'm asserting that you know nothing about the Talmud.

My question to you is give me some examples of how the Talmud covers up the "horrors" of the OT.

I already stated I haven't read the talmud. I was talking about the old test/torah in my other post.

Just for clarity you did write: "like the new testament, the talmud is the thing we use to cover up the despotic iron age horrors of the hebrew bible" my pt is that this is an embarrassing misrepresentation of the talmud

I said that because the torah is full of horrors, and like the xtians, it is preferred to study the gospels, or the jews, the talmud, because it is largely more moral by todays standards. Sorry if this wasn't clear.

You are continuing to misrepresent. The OT is read in synagogue every Saturday and is studied by many many Jews. The Talmud is a compendium of legal arguments (w some aggadatah- weird stories) studied mostly by yeshiva students and scholars. It has nothing to do w being a substitute for the OT (unlike the NT which yr right was theologically intended to supersede the OT)

If you've studied the Talmud you are intimately familiar w the Torah, no less bc the authority for almost every argument in the Talmud comes directly from Torah scripture

ftr I cannot think of a single "horror" in the Torah that isn't discussed in the Talmud- making it a very poor document for avoiding those narratives

You are continuing to misrepresent. The OT is read in synagogue every Saturday and is studied by many many Jews. The Talmud is a compendium of legal arguments (w some aggadatah- weird stories) studied mostly by yeshiva students and scholars. It has nothing to do w being a substitute for the OT (unlike the NT which yr right was theologically intended to supersede the OT)

― Mordy,

As it is in church and by millions of xtians. Still, plenty of more, er, conscientious modern types like to try to pretend OT doesn't exist as best they can, because they have read it. Much better to focus on the largely more positive gospels.

No one who studies the Talmud is pretending the OT doesn't exist. That would be insane.

And I am fully aware of the importance of the torah in judaism, as everyone should be, when one looks at the mentalities of settlers in the west bank, it is of course fueled by the stories in the tanakh.

ftr I cannot think of a single "horror" in the Torah that isn't discussed in the Talmud- making it a very poor document for avoiding those narratives

― Mordy

Yes, but that is the same as the gospels. The gospels were probably an attempt by later writers to "soften" and expand and improve on the morals the stories in the OT somewhat.

I'm not going to get into what percentage of settlers are theologically motivated and what % are secular but yr statement is a little reductive. My entire point is that you shouldn't misrepresent things you don't know about particularly vis-a-vis the Talmud. If nothing else hopefully this conversation will give you more accurate things to say the next time you feign knowledge on the topic

Also I'll let someone with a stake in the NT educate you about that but the gospels are not an attempt to soften expand or improve the OT law but specifically to replace it and replace its laws w faith in christ

I have re-visited the OT since briefly reading the first two books when I was a kid, and was kind of surprised at how bare and plain the writing was. It will be good to read commentary on what those stories mean or have to say, particularly from a non-Protestant perspective.

As for horrors in the Bible, I can take it. It's not like the past has a monopoly on horror.

If your primary interest is in the OT I wouldn't recommend the Talmud. Look into a series of texts called Me'om Lo'ez that has a wonderful super readable translation by iirc Aryeh Kaplan

Basically a compendium of midrash and Jewish folklore and wisdom centered directly on the week by week Torah portion

My primary interest isn't the OT exactly just brought that up due to conversation. But thanks for the recommendation!

drash if you're reading this thread I think that might be a good option for what you were looking for too

"I'm not going to get into what percentage of settlers are theologically motivated and what % are secular but yr statement is a little reductive."

OK let's put it this way, 100% are either religiously or nationalistically motivated. Bibi himself is probably not even that religious, his father was an atheist I believe. In fact the whole Zionist movement has largely, at governement level at least, already moved past religious motives privately. But most of the settlers obviously haven't. It doesn't matter anyway to this debate. I stated that the OT and H.B are full of horrors and rampant sexism.

thanks, i will

Also I'll let someone with a stake in the NT educate you about that but the gospels are not an attempt to soften expand or improve the OT law but specifically to replace it and replace its laws w faith in christ

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 1, 2015 2:29 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sure but this was probably because the OT despot God totally sucked, and there were all these mystery religions catching on with themes of rebirth and transformation within an earthly lifetime, and promising a personal religious experience/relationship w the divine. The early Christians were just getting with the ancient world program.

Deuteronomy 22:23

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

What does the Talmud comment on this passage, Mordy?

I think you're an exceptionally dishonest debater since we are debating whether your characterization of the Talmud has anything to do w reality and not whether there are passages in the OT that we find disturbing from the perspective of modern ethics

I'd say more based on modern morality, not ethics, but ok.

Maybe try comprehending the time/conditions in which that was written.

man yr arguing with a raccoon.

actually tho has been entertaining watching Mordy trounce him itt

Yes, you should. It was a time when woman and children were considered mere man's property, no more than cattle really. As things, not people.

actually tho has been entertaining watching Mordy trounce him itt

― Hammer Smashed Bagels

Nice try.

I think you're an exceptionally dishonest debater since we are debating whether your characterization of the Talmud has anything to do w reality and not whether there are passages in the OT that we find disturbing from the perspective of modern ethics

― Mordy,

Ah I see, I've seen this a thousand times before. So when it comes down to it, you're not actually willing to debate the issues and the content of these books, because your fully aware it's impossible to defend them.

xpost try would imply "effort", y'know, like you actually reading the Talmud prior to commenting on what it is.

I have not read the Talmud so I do not post about it. Novel thought, right? you should try it.

Mordy is this it?

http://www.amazon.com/Torah-Anthology-Beginnings-Meam-Series/dp/0940118017

Yes- there are a lot of volumes so I'd recommend starting w areas that yr particularly interested in.

xpost try would imply "effort", y'know, like you actually reading the Talmud prior to commenting on what it is.

I have not read the Talmud so I do not post about it. Novel thought, right? you should try it.

― Hammer Smashed Bagels,

Not sure why you and Mordy are implying you need to have read Talmud front to back to "know what it is". Any brief summary can tell you what it is. Mordy took issue with me saying it was in some ways reflective of the xtians use of the gospels, which it does seem to be to me.

good point. a brief summary of your ILX posts tells me yr a piss poor troll with shit tastes in hip-hop.

mordy do you have any recs for books on jewish ethics that aren't by Joseph Telushkin

I just recommended Heschels Prophets to drash- it's excellent. Also you might dig some soloveitchik like lonely man of faith

who is trolling who

you're not actually willing to debate the issues and the content of these books

As a society we have already debated the issues you are bringing up. It is illegal to murder, retributive violence is not tolerated, and women now have autonomy. It sounds like you want to debate the person who wrote Deuteronomy, which is going to be difficult to do.

good point. a brief summary of your ILX posts tells me yr a piss poor troll with shit tastes in hip-hop.

― Hammer Smashed Bagels

ok so you've come in for a flame war because you don't like what's being said about the torah, yet im a piss poor troll. Either way I think you're wasting my time. bye!

As a society we have already debated the issues you are bringing up. It is illegal to murder, retributive violence is not tolerated, and women now have autonomy. It sounds like you want to debate the person who wrote Deuteronomy, which is going to be difficult to do.

― ©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau),

I would argue this as a clearly disingenous point as it's already been stated that millions of people are still following the words of the torah, as Mordy has already mentioned. So let's talk about it.

okay now i know who's trolling who

"Women now have autonomy"

― ©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau),

Have you been to a xtian wedding recently? Most xtian women still consider themselves property of the husband, if you push them on it. And the vows and attitudes reflect that. How many female rabbis are in Israel?

When Israel was formed in '48, the Orthodox Rabbinate were handed control over many society and family issues. Of course Orthodox Rabbis went on to be the dominate power in Israel (you can't get married in Israel under a non-Orthodox rabbi).

I'm not sure who you're arguing with or about what but I think that's ok bc I'm not sure you know either

The other poster was intimating the horrors of the Torah are looked over, which in a way was my original point - but in another way, wasn't to the post of they qouted.

Sorry I'm still not grokking. Can you the exact words that you are arguing with atm and tell me what the argument is?

Who let this guy back in?

Sorry I'm still not grokking. Can you the exact words that you are arguing with atm and tell me what the argument is?

― Mordy,

Ok man look, I thought you were interested in a debate about the Talmud, but when it comes down to it, you just want to avoid the actual contents part, or the bad parts. Which is exactly what I was saying people do in the first place. I know this is not an easy thing to talk about when it comes to your culture so w/e.