Recommend me something similar to Hole's 'Celebrity Skin'

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i really wanted "america's sweetheart" to be good. the single was all right.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 13 March 2006 23:57 (8 years ago) Permalink

Aw... You make little Bean sad...

Also, it is good! The first six tracks are solid, "Sunset Strip" and "Almost Golden" in particular.

After that, it gets filler-y, but in the way of filler that occasionally shows up to surprise you on Shuffle. The gall with which she cops, um, "More Than A Feeling" on "Hello" is vintage.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 00:02 (8 years ago) Permalink

i do love america's sweetheart! most of it. it reminds me more of pretty on the inside than it does celebrity skin.

PRIVATE HELL 36 (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 00:21 (8 years ago) Permalink

Oddly, I hear bits of Tara Key's Bourbon County in Celebrity Skin's unabashed jangly hookiness, but on a hugely more low-fi scale - no gloss whatsoever. Tara Key is more like Celebrity Skin divided by Yo La Tengo's Painful.

The combined pixie-dust of Corgan and Michael Beinhorn on Celebrity Skin is sheer pop alchemy. I love it.

Myke. (Myke Weiskopf), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 05:12 (8 years ago) Permalink

America's Sweetheart was better in theory than in practice. It could have been the album where she capitalized on Celebrity Skin and went full-out pop. As it is, it sounds like a step back from Celebrity Skin.

Le Baaderonixx de Clignancourt (baaderonixx), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 08:56 (8 years ago) Permalink

America's Sweetheart was better in theory than in practice. It could have been the album where she capitalized on Celebrity Skin and went full-out pop. As it is, it sounds like a step back from Celebrity Skin.

I am reminded of Whitechocolatespaceegg --> Liz Phair.

Myke. (Myke Weiskopf), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 11:19 (8 years ago) Permalink

i just listened to celebrity skin the other day but this made me want to listen to it again, all afternoon.
i love this thread.

ohmygod, Tuesday, 14 March 2006 12:07 (8 years ago) Permalink

"Really? You don't see a connection between CS and, say, "1979"? I think the latter is built to accomodate Corgan's vocal qualities, but it's not that far away from "Malibu." Like the nighttime version of that or something."

I should clarify Eppy - there's definite similarities in the music, it's just that the difference in vocals makes me tend to overlook them.

I'd say the closest Smashing Pumpkins track might actually be "Today" because it's their sunniest.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 12:59 (8 years ago) Permalink

IMO, the contrast between the sunny production and the nihilistic lyrics, a la Steely Dan, is a central ingredient that sets it apart from Corgan (that and the absence of an irritating nasal whine)

Le Baaderonixx de Benedict Canyon (baaderonixx), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 13:13 (8 years ago) Permalink

And, as I keep wanting to yell out, the best songs on Celebrity Skin had no Corgan involvement (I'm taking about the amazing late-album run of "Use Once & Destroy", "Borthern Star" and "Boys On The Radio")

edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 13:35 (8 years ago) Permalink

"Today" would be closer than "1979", also "Here Is No Why" and maybe even "Stand Inside Your Love" at a pinch.

edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 13:38 (8 years ago) Permalink

I'd say the closest Smashing Pumpkins track might actually be "Today" because it's their sunniest.

IMO, the contrast between the sunny production and the nihilistic lyrics, a la Steely Dan, is a central ingredient that sets it apart from Corgan

This is amusing to me because Corgan's said the song was written on a birthday when he was thinking about committing suicide, and that therefore the intent of the song is thoroughly sarcastic.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 13:40 (8 years ago) Permalink

And, as I keep wanting to yell out, the best songs on Celebrity Skin had no Corgan involvement (I'm taking about the amazing late-album run of "Use Once & Destroy", "Northern Star" and "Boys On The Radio")

i forget, did he have a hand in "petals"? that song kills me... sheesh, talk about fleetwood goth. completely girly and witchy.

PRIVATE HELL 36 (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 13:48 (8 years ago) Permalink

Yeah he did "Petals".

Urgent & Key Corgan tracks: title track, "Hit So Hard", "Malibu", "Petals"

Urgent & Key Non-Corgan tracks: "Awful", "Use Once & Destroy", "Northern Star", "Boys on the Radio"

So I sorta think it's about half 'n'half.

Ned perhaps the difference b/w Celebrity Skin and "Today" is that the irony isn't laid quite so bare - the choruses of "Today" call out the verses as liars, whereas on the sunny numbers on Celebrity Skin do not let their masks slip so much, or perhaps it's that they're pitched at a place where sunniness and suicidal depression can co-exist more easily . "Awful", "Malibu", "Boys on the Radio" all focus around notions of disillusion and dissolution, damage and decay - not physical but emotional/psych/social... "How are you so burned when you're barely on fire?" "I know that you were rotten to the core"... and yet this does not render their sunniness sarcastic, they're much more wistful than anything else, and maybe this is why people think of "1979" (except that "1979" is only wistful: Corgan is more interesting in focusing on one particular emotion and taking it to extremes, it's the goth in him. Courtney is aware that songs mean different things for different people, have multiple purposes. This is perhaps the pop star in her)

.I'm tempted to think the use of musical sunniness in Celebrity Skin is a meta-statement about the triumph of music over biography. In the same way that Fleetwood Mac's songs persevere on radio long after everyone has forgotten the intra-band warfare, Courtney's lyrics seem obsessively focused on the afterlife of Nirvana etc. ("all the boys on the radio/they crash and burn they fold and fade so slow..."), "the legacy" for better or worse. So she writes (or co-writes) deliberately "timeless"-sounding rock music to comment on the fragility of a moment in rock - the star winks out but the songs live on, she says, and I want mine to as well..

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 14:14 (8 years ago) Permalink

I dunno, I hear late-period Courtney stuff as very sunsetty, very dusk, so really only a few hours away from a lot of Pumpkins stuff. Maybe this is just contextual, but I have a really hard time not hearing "Today"'s sunniness as so teeth-clenchingly ironic that it becomes kind of a tanning booth. But oops, I just slipped into rock-cric-metaphor hell.

xpost oops Tim just kinda said this.

Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 14:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

My favorite song off CS by far is "Awful," I think it's one of the best songs of all time--it's many things, but one of the things it is is the most honest document of being a musician I've ever heard.

Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 14:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

This thread fills me with joy

Le Baaderonixx de Benedict Canyon (baaderonixx), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 14:19 (8 years ago) Permalink

I love "Awful" so much, esp. the drumming towards the end! But I never know whether I adore it or "Hit So Hard" or "Malibu" or "Boys on the Radio" more.

Oddly I really disliked "Hit So Hard" when I first got the album?!?!?

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 14:20 (8 years ago) Permalink

Viva Las Vegas by Elvis Presley. Well the tune of the chorus is the same, anyway.

Daniel Giraffe (Daniel Giraffe), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 14:45 (8 years ago) Permalink

No love for "Playing Your Song" and "Reasons to be Beautiful"?

Le Baaderonixx de Benedict Canyon (baaderonixx), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 14:49 (8 years ago) Permalink

Oddly I really disliked "Hit So Hard" when I first got the album?!?!?

The only thing I recal thinking about this song is that it was a knockoff of "He Hit Me (And It Felt Like A Kiss)."

Personally, I also love "Heaven Tonight," even if it's just a musical excuse for Billy Corgan to make a Cheap Trick reference, and I think it's a sweet lullaby to Frances.

Myke. (Myke Weiskopf), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 15:11 (8 years ago) Permalink

"Playing Your Song" = the most "Live Through This" song on the album. LOVE IT.

Je4nn3 ƒur¥ (Je4nne Fury), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 15:11 (8 years ago) Permalink

"hit so hard" is devastating…the best toon therein, IMHO…

veronica moser (veronica moser), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 16:07 (8 years ago) Permalink

"Personally, I also love "Heaven Tonight," even if it's just a musical excuse for Billy Corgan to make a Cheap Trick reference, and I think it's a sweet lullaby to Frances. "

corgan wasn't involved in heaven tonight in any way. it's a love/erlandson composition, and it was courtney's idea to pay tribute to cheap trick by that reference.

jonfromsweden, Tuesday, 14 March 2006 16:08 (8 years ago) Permalink

Given the bile Courtney inspires on these here parts, I'm amazed y'all love this album.

"Playing Your Song" = the most "Live Through This" song on the album. LOVE IT.

Her enunciation of "FUCKIN' WONDERFUL" proves she's a great singer.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 16:10 (8 years ago) Permalink

i'm amazed too. and happy. this is a truly great album and to see this great discussion, eight years later and without any focus on courtney love's public persona but all about the music, is great.

jonfromsweden, Tuesday, 14 March 2006 16:13 (8 years ago) Permalink

and i just noticed i used the word "great" two times too many.

jonfromsweden (jonfromsweden), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 16:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

Try Sandra Bell's Dreams of Falling. Heavier, but very catchy. Came out in '92 in New Zealand.

gr3k0, Tuesday, 14 March 2006 16:19 (8 years ago) Permalink

Courtney is aware that songs mean different things for different people, have multiple purposes.

i think it's just that she's so scatterbrained that she has a new emotion every five seconds, or she can find a variety of different emotions in one stock "mood" (how many people ever only feel DEPRESSED when they're sad? no, they feel sarcastic, wistful, mad, confused, occasionally exhilarated).

The only thing I recal thinking about this song is that it was a knockoff of "He Hit Me (And It Felt Like A Kiss)."

it took me many years to admit this, but i like it more than "he hit me." it feels more vulnerable, not quite so glib and arch in its irony.

jbr not logged in, Tuesday, 14 March 2006 16:31 (8 years ago) Permalink

corgan wasn't involved in heaven tonight in any way. it's a love/erlandson composition, and it was courtney's idea to pay tribute to cheap trick by that reference.

Well, smackdown to me, then :-D

I still think it's a great song.

Myke. (Myke Weiskopf), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 17:30 (8 years ago) Permalink

and i agree.

jonfromsweden (jonfromsweden), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 17:49 (8 years ago) Permalink

the b-sides for malibu are really good too. drag and the cover of dylan's it's all over now, baby blue.

jonfromsweden (jonfromsweden), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 17:58 (8 years ago) Permalink

No love for "Playing Your Song" and "Reasons to be Beautiful"?

sure! I love the whole record, why not. "Reasons.." has the "miles and miles of perfect skin" line in it, and a Pavement reference and "When the fire goes out you better learn to fake/It’s better to rise than fade away." so great.

perhaps it's that they're pitched at a place where sunniness and suicidal depression can co-exist more easily

I think it's basically.. the 90's was all about boys on the radio caught in, uh, downward spirals and Courtney's saying, stop, enough of this! (I agree.) I don't find it nihilistic in the least - all the references to passing moments & fading away are more.. acknowledging that & moving on, really. Never been a fan of Billy Corgan but he seems totally stuck in that old melodrama.

dar1a g (daria g), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 18:14 (8 years ago) Permalink

is there a thread about courtney's lyrics anywhere? i really think she's great, and it's bullshit that she doesn't get more credit for it.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 19:26 (8 years ago) Permalink

It's nihilistic in the sense that it foregoes any punk ethos she may have had paid lip-service to before and saying "this malibu world is a whore but it's gonna be mine". Ou quelque chose comme ça...

xpost

Le Baaderonixx de Benedict Canyon (baaderonixx), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 19:27 (8 years ago) Permalink

s there a thread about courtney's lyrics anywhere? i really think she's great, and it's bullshit that she doesn't get more credit for it

I agree: her lyrics are often exemplary. Compare the how-do-you-like-me? celebrity games of the title track with Nirvana's "Serve the Servants" and the latter just seems sour and enervated.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 19:33 (8 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, god bless kurt, but he was always better when you didn't know what he was saying, whereas Courtney's great at saying like three things at once...

Eppy (Eppy), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 19:36 (8 years ago) Permalink

is there a thread about courtney's lyrics anywhere?

Not specifically, but her witty unpredictable's been discussed in a few other threads...

TS: "Malibu" versus "Simple Kind of Life"
ts: courtney vs brody
why do people on ILM hate "live through this" ?
Who are the great lyricists of today?

rogermexico (rogermexico), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 19:46 (8 years ago) Permalink

Where did the Hole cover of Gold Dust Woman come from? Was that a b-side?

Le Baaderonixx de Benedict Canyon (baaderonixx), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 19:49 (8 years ago) Permalink

Second Crow movie, I believe.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 19:51 (8 years ago) Permalink

i mean, just the title "celebrity skin" is so great,

Stolen from a late 80s/90s L.A. band featuring Don Bolles, wasn't it?

eek, Tuesday, 14 March 2006 20:23 (8 years ago) Permalink

as well as a magazine.

PRIVATE HELL 36 (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 21:14 (8 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I always assumed it was named after the magazine rather than the band as well.

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 21:21 (8 years ago) Permalink

i'm amazed too. and happy. this is a truly great album and to see this great discussion, eight years later and without any focus on courtney love's public persona but all about the music, is great.

-- jonfromsweden (jon.la...), March 14th, 2006.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and i just noticed i used the word "great" two times too many.
-- jonfromsweden (jon.la...), March 14th, 2006. (jonfromsweden)

The remix:
i'm amazed too. and happy. this is a truly grebt album and to see this grebbt discussion, eight years later and without any focus on courtney love's public persona but all about the music, is grebbbt.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 21:42 (8 years ago) Permalink

without any focus on courtney love's public persona

Almost 100 posts in, too. This place is weird without Alex in NYC...

rogermexico (rogermexico), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 21:47 (8 years ago) Permalink

By the way, other than Tim sort of saying I Am Me, no one's tried to answer the original question.

I've only heard a couple of songs on Celebrity Skin, so I won't try. I prefer Autobiography to I Am Me, though I like the latter quite a lot; and when Mikael Wood reviewed Autobiography he said that basically it was this decade's Live Through This, so maybe I won't like Celebrity Skin quite as much as I like Live Through This.

(But Autobiography actually has much more of a spring in its step than Live Through This Has does. Autobiography explicates the pain so as to dance free of it. On Live Through This, the pain is a big part of the dance. As it is on the title song of I Am Me.)

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 21:52 (8 years ago) Permalink

Autobiography explicates the pain so as to dance free of it

I think you will enjoy Celebrity Skin, then.

Le Baaderonixx de Benedict Canyon (baaderonixx), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 22:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

another favorite lyric on the album: "you want a part of me/well i'm not selling cheap" -- not selling cheap, i love it. like there's no pretense that she's not selling ("oh cinderella, they aren't sluts like you"), just that she's gonna drive the price up as far as she can.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 22:20 (8 years ago) Permalink

"she obliterated everything she kissed"

PRIVATE HELL 36 (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 22:24 (8 years ago) Permalink

"I was punk, now I'm just stupid, god I'm awful.."

dar1a g (daria g), Tuesday, 14 March 2006 23:28 (8 years ago) Permalink


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