ILM Ballot Polls for 2014 and beyond -- order, timing, "I would have voted if I'd known about it," etc

I thought it was a song > 10 min long? I'm not sure if 10 was the magic # but length was a defining characteristic

If "epics" poll is really about any 10/20/xx minute track in any genre, I'm stoked for that! It needs a pretty strict nomination process though, I can think of a a couple of hundred ambient tracks alone that would qualify.

I'd say the minimum running time must be at least 10 minutes, though. If you set it at 8 or something, there are way too many "normal", not-particularly-lengthy-for-its-genre tracks valid in genres like metal, techno, jazz, prog rock, etc.

Maybe there rules would make it work?

1) A track must be at least 10 (or 15/20, whatever you decide) minutes long to be valid.

2) A track that's shorter than 10/15/20 minutes can be valid if it's at least twice as long as the second-longest track on the same album.

This way you could include tracks that are not super-long "objectively", but still epic within their own context/genre.

what if it only was released as a single? (Beat Bop for instance)

2) A track that's shorter than 10/15/20 minutes can be valid if it's at least twice as long as the second-longest track average track length on the same album.

Not 'Estranged', though...

"Beat Bop" isn't super-long within the context of old school rap, the full-length "Rapper's Delight" is 15 minutes, and many other old school singles are around 10 minutes too.

I doubt Leee or anyone is gonna start calculating average track lengths within a whole genre, so non-album singles would still be problematic... But I don't see how this poll could be run in a non-problematic way, since the definition of "epic" length varies so much between genres.

ok I don't have mod priveleges fyi (don't want them either) but I will try my best to keep up with all the comments on this thread. I've made some executive decisions about the order so tuff titties if you don't like it (keepin Iggy at the bottom since flopson's target date is still months out). To-date here's where we're at:

62. Italo - daavid
63. Spacemen 3 and related acts - Elvis Telecom
64. “Epics” (non-classical division) - Leee
65. Yo La Tengo/Dump - Clemenza
66. The Boo Radleys - Bee OK
67. Emo/Screamo/Mallcore/(post)Hardcore - Mordy
68. Creedence Clearwater Revival - crüt
69. Hard Rock/Hair Metal - how’s life
70. Extreme Metal - Viceroy
71. Stephin Merritt - Gukbe
72. Metallica - Pleasant Plains
73. Spoon - Bee OK
74. Nirvana - Gavin, Leeds
75. Fairport Convention et al (R Thompson, S Denny) - Billy Dods
76. Queen - charlie h
77. Can - Z S
78. Tom Petty - rogermexico
79. Ramones - tipsy mothra (finished)
80. Jimi Hendrix - some dude
81. Stereolab - Moka
82. Bauhaus/Tones on Tail-Love and Rockets/Peter Murphy - Bee OK
83. Genesis + solo - NickB
84. The Smiths - nate woolls
85. Pearl Jam - VegemiteGrrl
86. The Burt Bacharach songbook - C. Grisso/McCain
87. Dead C - Raymond Cummings
88. Royal Trux + side projects - sleeve
89. John Fahey - Naive Teen Idol?
90. Rush - Matt #2
91. Oasis - pollrunner needed for this one
92. George Michael - Ismael Klata
93. Talking Heads - Bee OK
94. Gamble & Huff/Philly International Records - jetfan
95. Van Halen - Johnny Fever
96. Billy Joel - Doctor Casino
97. Low - aldo
98. Nine Inch Nails - chap
99. REM - rogermexico.
100. Bjork - Eric H.
101. Wu-Tang Clan - Spottie
102. Shoegaze/Dream Pop/Post-rock (Albums and EPs) - Bee OK
103. Covers - kornrulez6969
104. New Pornographers/AC Newman - staggerlee
105. They Might Be Giants - Johnny Fever
106. No Wave - sarahell
107. DFA - Van Horn Street
108. Misfits/Samhain/Danzig - gr8080
109. Beatles solo careers - Οὖτις
110. Erykah Badu - Eric H.
111. Nick Cave/Bad Seeds/Birthday Party/et al - charlie h
112. Herbie Hancock - crüt
113. Aphex Twin - Stevie D
114. Blondie - Bee OK
115. Electroclash - soref
116. Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis - Spottie
117. Siouxsie & the Banshees/The Creatures - LeRooLeRoo
118. AM Radio Gold - Jeff W
119. Eurovision - nxd
120. Steve Albini - nate woolls
121. Yellow Magic Orchestra - frogbs
122. Elvis Presley - Euler
123. Byrds + offshoots - kornrulez6969
124. Cardiacs + affiliated - imago
125. Tropicalia/MPB - Frederik B
126. Chic Organization -
127. Stooges/Iggy Pop -

I was thinking about this yesterday. Would a 2010-14 poll really be all that fun? At this point, I think it'd be more fun to poll the years spanning the life of ilx up to now. 2001-2014, because we could rewrite A LOT of history that way (which might be a bad thing, but it also might not be).

― Johnny Fever, Friday, January 23, 2015 1:31 PM (1 week ago)

[...]

plan would be to do it like sometime this summer right?

― call all destroyer, Friday, January 23, 2015 1:42 PM (1 week ago)

[...]

When did ILM officially begin? Was it 2000 or 2001? (I didn't get here until 2002, and didn't start participating with any regularity until 2003.)

― Johnny Fever, Friday, January 23, 2015 2:28 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

2000.

― example (crüt), Friday, January 23, 2015 2:31 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ahh, so the poll would cover 2000-2014 then.

― Johnny Fever, Friday, January 23, 2015 2:31 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^so i the poll-crew on board with this?

seems like something that could run concurrently with an artist poll? idk

idgi is the idea just a tracks poll for the last 15 years?

All polls should get in the queue apart from eoy polls otherwise we would get a 2000-2014 metal poll and scik mouthy would be able to restart the all time poll.
Its not fair on anyone who signed up.
This thread isnt just for artist polls anymore.

ILM Top 100 2005-2009: TRACKS

sure, but 2004-2008 hasn't been done amirite

ILM Top 100 2000-2004: ALBUMS
ILM Top 100 2000-2004: TRACKS

ILM Top 100 2005-2009: ALBUMS
ILM Top 100 2005-2009: TRACKS

the idea would be a retrospective of the first 15 years ILM has existed, see what holds up, what doesn't, whats been forgotten, whats been discovered

Back of the line sez i

i disagree

Only if we aren't able to vote for things that placed in the earlier polls.

also every still living poster whos ever posted needs to be contacted and cast a ballot imo

Only if they didn't vote previously.

Unfair on those who signed up. The all time poll was forced to stop and join quite rightly. Get in the queue System ilx agreed on.

might as well do 2000-2020 by then

eaxactly

but all time poll is a dumbass idea

i'm with gr80, i feel like were kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel with the artist polls atp. we've done 65 in what, 3 years? and there are another 65 to go on the list. so then we'd have to wait 3 years to do a 2000-2014 poll? that's dumb. summer is a pretty slow time on ilx in general so it would mostly be 4 the hardcore nerds, could easily run concurrently with artist polls

The poll's going to happen in the late summer regardless of what other polls are taking place.

the 5-year retrospective polls have a precedent that predeceases this thread & queue also

o shit JF laying down the law

Bottom of the barrel? I totally disagree

so do i fwiw

I'm not gonna say artist polls have to stop to accomodate these other bigger more generic polls.

The poll's going to happen in the late summer regardless of what other polls are taking place.

― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, February 4, 2015 1:31 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

nice B-)

Jf wants to do it late summer = fine whatever. If whoever's up for the next artist poll at that point wants to wait that's up to them. Imo.

At the rate these take place, we'd probably be down the list to the hair metal or CCR poll by August, and an ILM retrospective poll isn't going to take any shine off either of those.

(also, I plan to vote in both)

these polls are taking so much longer than they were initially expected to, can't imagine signing up to do something three years hence

Yeah, we used to be able to get through 2 a month, but somewhere along the line people started extending the voting period (for some reason?) and now the whole process is a slog.

The poll's going to happen in the late summer regardless of what other polls are taking place.

― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, February 4, 2015 1:31 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I hope this advance notice gives everyone a chance to get some deep cut joke #1s ready

The results will be more interesting in 2020 than in 2015 IMO. It's a cool idea for a poll, but I agree it shouldn't jump ahead; EOY really should be the only exception to the queue. We hashed this out last February, and I agree with those saying it would end up being unfair to those who'd waited their turn. If ۩ had taken up the proposal, back then, to join the queue, he'd be justifiably pretty annoyed to find out that another 'general' poll had gotten community approval to skip, where his (I think rightly) was not.

I stand by this:

this thread and its predecessor work on the assumption that too many polls at once is bad for all of them - people can't make ballots, can't find time to participate in the threads, it's a drag. BUT: an unscheduled poll may, based on its topic, be really appealing to lots of people who aren't necessarily following the order-and-timing thread. They are, like the people making ballots in the current Albums poll, stoked to participate. That wouldn't be a problem, except now, the next person to start a poll that *is* on the 'schedule' is put in a bind: Do I start this long-scheduled poll, at the risk that much of ILM will see it as the late-comer that's adding to a pile-on? "Crap, I would totally have made a classic rock ballot, that sounds awesome, but..." Or do I wait, even though a) I've been waiting my turn, b) we just waited out the EOY polls, and c) waiting is in turn holding up every other poll further down in the queue?

Unless there's a larger ILM consensus to stick with the ordered-and-timed schedule, then that schedule can always get derailed completely by an unscheduled (I'm trying to avoid saying "rogue") operator.

My feeling is that there has been something of an ILM consensus about the validity of the order-and-timing threads in the three years since they've been in use. It's possible of course that I'm overstating that, or reading too much into the success of the polls they've spawned. I do think the results of this system have met with much more public approval than the results of a hypothetical world where all of the last twenty polls had taken place the same month would have! We don't really have a moderation test case though - the rogue Madonna poll was locked, but because it was a swipe at a particular poster, not specifically because the O&T list was "law."

I'd add that I think this applies uniquely to music polls, where ILMers really do want to set aside time to do some listening to refresh and narrow down the ballot - - - I would hope, particularly in the case of a 'retrospective' ballot where there's the chance for people to pull out a track they haven't listened to in a decade and go "Wait...I was excited about this?" That just takes time, and means that competition for 'ballot time' is a real thing in a way that I don't think it would be for movie or book polls or whatever...I mean nobody is actually going to watch a hundred films in a month to try and sort their ballot for Action Movies.

Yeah, we used to be able to get through 2 a month, but somewhere along the line people started extending the voting period (for some reason?) and now the whole process is a slog.

― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, February 4, 2015 11:39 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

agree, time to get back to the core principles of polling

The core, the heart poll

Polls taking longer could be a fair point (though you don't want it to feel like a brutal assembly line)... and maybe should be a separate conversation around 'reforms.' How long is the average voting period these days?

For me the bigger issue with poll timelines is the really really fast rollouts, which make it impossible to take anything in if you, say, go to work one day. I don't see any reason results can't be spread out over a longer period, while the next ballot starts. The issue is with crowding out people's energy and time for crafting ballots, not for reading and discussing rollouts.

Like, voting should begin on a Monday with results beginning the following Monday. Then the NEXT Monday voting starts for the next poll. That ain't a hard schedule to stick to imo.

good post dr. casino, but i still feel like the 5-year retrospective is an established tradition that pre-dates the queue system (which has only been around since 2011)

I'm all for keeping voting/resuls rollout cycles to 2 wks. Sometimes huger discographies may warrant longer times.

To speed it up even more, voting on the next poll could begin concurrently with the previous poll's rollout.

i'm all for timely polls but as important and serious business as ILM is, give me a break ppl have lives, sometimes its better to wait for a quality rollout than have a poll-runner flake because life got in the way for a few weeks

If ۩ had taken up the proposal, back then, to join the queue, he'd be justifiably pretty annoyed to find out that another 'general' poll had gotten community approval to skip, where his (I think rightly) was not.

I don't care really. I still believe that Artist polls are for this thread only and other polls aren't and should run whenever they like.

Half decade polls are crap but 2000-2014 sounds ok to me. Just do it JF. A lot of last feb's stuff was personal by certain posters.

cant speak for nick though since the poll was as much , of not more,his

All I'm saying is that if the timeline on this became a lot more uniform, a user whose life gets hectic for a minute can slide down a list a little bit but still have a pretty good idea that the poll would take place in 8 weeks instead of 6 months maybe possibly.