Transparent - Jill Solloway television series on Amazon

discovering that solloway's dad is trans suggests a lot about the perspective and intent of the series to me

That may be true, but even leaving aside this last faux pas and my concerns about Solloway casting a cis man to play a trans woman, we're not exactly lacking for cis narratives about middle-class white people transitioning that mostly speak to cis concerns. That it sounds like Transparent adds to that glut is probably inevitable given the economics of producing a tv series, but it doesn't make me any more inclined to engage with the show, especially given the more challenging work by trans writers that's been coming out of small presses like Topside over the last few years (Katherine Cross has written about some of those developments here: http://bitchmagazine.org/article/know-tell-trans-women-literary-fiction-nonfiction-writing-publishing). Anyway, I can't fairly judge this series without watching it, and I don't begrudge you your enjoyment of it, so I'll stay out of this thread.

better yet: watch a few episodes and see what you think!
and yeah, i would also certainly welcome a non-cis perspective narrative series made for television; maybe the success of transparent will lead that direction in the next few years

Yeah, point taken: whatever my misgivings, I'll try to approach the series with an open mind when I eventually get around to watching a few episodes. (A non-ILX friend whose judgment I trust described it as decently written, despite her ambivalence about its casting and whiteness and class focus.)

the complints re: race/class stuff is understandable but the show goes into more depth re cultural/religious identity w/r/t Judaism than I was expecting, and I think it deserves some points for that

I watched the pilot and I felt like it was well-written and acted but I didn't want to spend any more time with the characters, especially the kids.

Yeah, otm. We're taking a break between seasons of "The Americans," so my wife suggested it, based on buzz/acclaim. As I watched it I was worried she might be into it, because I hated everyone, but thankfully at the end she turned to me and basically said she hated it and didn't like anyone and that she just couldn't relate to anyone or any of their problems and particularly their pervasive selfish unfunny assholery. I may make her watch another ep, to be fair, but frankly between this show and a general disinterest in revisiting "Orange is the New Black," I'm happy to be able to knock a few series off of our collective must-see list.

not meaning to make this a thing but the "i don't like these characters" argument always loses me. i can get "i find these situations / the directorial eye and intent appalling" but they're actors in parts; whether I like them or not is totally secondary to the reliability of the narrator and the creative skill of the whole team

i feel certain there must be a thread about this somewhere.

the characters in this are no less likeable than the characters in arrested development, i think.

it definitely gets better, and deeper, as it goes along.

Unlikeable characters in ridiculous comedits like AD or Curb I can get behind. But I find it tougher in ostensibly reality based drama.

Comedies, sorry.

Conversely you could say it's a failure of the creative team to make these unlikeable characters compelling. Obviously I love lots of assholes and narcissistic peeps on TV, so it's not that it's always bad.

I don't know, I found the characters compelling enough, and I thought it was a very well-written series, but I'm judging it on the whole season and not the first episode or so.

For me, it's that their unlikeable traits are presented as adorable or sassy (the Californication problem), and just their straight-up meanness seems hack-y and easy rather than an attempt to dig deeper. (I've heard it gets better too though)

Yeah, that was exactly the problem we had, that the show sort of smugly double-downed on these unlikeable character traits, like they were supposed to be funny or even endearing rather than just abrasive or obnoxious. I admit it's a really tough call, when to stick it out, and so many shows improve after the pilot, or after the first few episodes, or even after the first season (this one has already been picked up for two more seasons, right?). Perhaps expectations were too high for this one, since we've heard nothing but good things, to such an extent that we were sort of left scratching our heads.

Sorry, but that strikes me as a terribly misguided reason not to watch anything, unless you're looking for more passive entertainment (and it's totally cool if you are, obviously). But the supposition that likeable characters makes a show good needs to be questioned from the beginning, especially here where none of the kids are supposed to be likable: they're flawed, frustrating, self-destructve, extremely selfish assholes, and the nuances of that are what make them good characters, and make the show interesting.

Again, there's probably a thread on this, but the idea that the default setting is that you should be able to relate, that identification should be as smooth and pleasurable as possible, strikes me as ????

But the supposition that likeable characters makes a show good needs to be questioned from the beginning, especially here where none of the kids are supposed to be likable: they're flawed, frustrating, self-destructve, extremely selfish assholes, and the nuances of that are what make them good characters, and make the show interesting.

I agree with this. They are unlikeable and deeply flawed characters, but I still find them - or their individual narratives - interesting.

Oh, it's not a default setting at all, at least not for us. There is nothing we watch just to watch something, simply as boob-tube "what's on?" escapism. We have to be interested and invested, at least to some degree, and yeah, entertained, too, not least because we have limited time to sit around watching anything. Obviously like all art it's ultimately personal, because like I posted a few inches back, there is plenty I watch, have watched, have read, etc., with flawed or otherwise unlikeable characters, often to an extreme, but I've still soldiered on, often to great reward. This show, we were struck by just how much it rubbed both of us the wrong way. Like, I know folks who can't stand "Seinfeld" for the same reason, and that's fine. These folks were a very particular strain of ugly that we just couldn't take. Again, it's the kind of unlikeable they are, the kind where I suspect you're supposed to find them kooky, or funny, or some other appealing eccentric quality that helps you get past their horrible personalities. But we didn't sync up with that. I suppose it's all about how the story is told, then.

The father's story was the most compelling on every front, but every time a kid showed up, let alone opened their mouth, we were just ... ugh. I mean, Tambor's character literally says something along the lines of "I can't believe I raised such selfish, horrible children," so I can only assume the show will be partly about their transition too, in a sense.

It's like books. I usually finish every book I begin, but every once in a while there's a book I hate so much I just can't do it. Like, recently I read a third of 'The Making of Zombie Wars,' by Aleksandar Hemon, and it was so bad that I eventually just had to stop. TV I guess is even more cutthroat, because (sorry 21st century) we only watch it on an actual TV, around the same time block, as available. Unlike a movie, which is only 2 or so hours long, or a book, which we can take with us wherever we go, several hours of a show is a much bigger commitment for us.

"I suspect you're supposed to find them kooky, or funny, or some other appealing eccentric quality that helps you get past their horrible personalities."

I dunno, I'm not sure I did or do, at least not in the way vharacters on, say, Girls, are totally fucking tedious, but you're still supposed to find them "cute."

"I can only assume the show will be partly about their transition too, in a sense."

Maybe I'm misreading the comment, but I'm again curious: why this need for redemption, or any kind of coming to self-consciousness? I think if anything, the show goes further into ~why~ they're fucked up - to have them come to and suddenly redeem themselves and earn the viewers sympathy would a) betray the characters themselves (especially since they seem to not learn from their mistakes) and b) just be lazy and easy narrative, no? I mean, most real people aren't likeable, why should fictional people be?

Anyways, not to push the point, I really liked the show, but my main problem with it is that it (and I haven't read this thred pre-revive, so forgive my potential repetitions) seems largely unaware of/unreflective on/unconcerned with the pre-conditions for the whole narrative it depicts, which is that Mort/Maura is a wealthy white person with familial support and without financial or occupational dependences. Granted, I'm not sure the show's prerogative is to represent "the average" trans experience, or is necessarily obliged to show the common struggles of most trans persons (which go well beyond [SEMI-SPOILER] being harassed in a bathroom once and falling out with your bigoted friend), which brings the show dangerously close to the kind of played out, voyeuristic "rich people have problems too!" thematic of a lot of recent tv (cf. 6 feet under, which I believe Jill Solloway wrote), and at the risk of just reproducing the invisibility of the kind of trans experience they don't even acknowledge in the slightest. Again, this raises the question of whether a show can just be what it is or has an of obligation to faithfully represent the topic it represents, or alternately that is projected upon it (it may not claim to stand for the whole of trans experience - impossible in any case - but people might view it as such?). I dunno, in this caitlyn jenner moment, I'd like to have seen it express a little more self-consciousness about how it presents itself.

"rich people have problems too!"

I genuinely feel like this show's characters are like the characters in Arrested Development, though treated more in a Little Miss Sunshine vibe than the jokapalooza that AD did. Obvs AD didn't have the Trans theme, but I almost feel that's subservient to the overall theme of spoiled rich kids behaving badly, albeit learning some kind of sensitivity or knowledge of their own awfulness as the show progresses.

I can identify with your feeling, Josh, I gave up on Mad Men after the first couple of episodes because I hated all the characters (but then picked it up again a couple of years later) - but I didn't hate these weirdos so much as find their flaws and foibles interesting - or if not interesting, I wanted to see where they would lead them.

Also, I have loved Tambor since Hill Street Blues and would watch him in anything. Also my partner loved it and it came online shortly after our daughter was born and all we could do in life was stream!

I found a certain aspect of these characters instantly familiar and recognizable, and I assumed it was the Jewish family vibe, but maybe it's just the selfishness.

for me, i assumed it was both

There's nothing wrong with dislikeabke characters at all. But at some point in the early 00s, random meanness just became the comedy norm, and I think to some extent meanness is a lazy writer's crutch, and it's easier to write characters who are too mean to connect, because monologue is just a lot easier to write than dialogue, and (as Twitter will show you) it's a lot easier to write something mean than to write something interesting.

But on the other hand I only watched 1.5 episodes so I'll try again.

Little Miss Sunshine vibe

I certainly wouldn't expect change or redemption from these characters (x-post), but if they stay the way they are in episode one then I probably made the right decision cutting and running. Because -

why should fictional people be?

Episode two was a bit better, but I'm still blown away by the show's smug insistence that the kids and their lives are remotely as compelling as the dad's story. The father's story is great, but two eps in it's presented almost as a supporting story to the kids, but it really should be the other way around. it's almost like an exercise: let's take three supporting narcissists and make them the wise-cracking, ridiculous center. Every time they cut from the dad it immediately dead drops into silly sitcom/dramedy conventionality. May say as much about Solloway as anything else, tbh.

OTOH, I have been enjoying pretending it's a secret spin-off of "Parenthood." Like, there's a big reveal at the end that they're all best friends with Sarah Braverman.

I've watched 7 eps since Friday night. I love this and Tambor is AMAZING. The Maura flashbacks are great and the one where she and the guy she met in the bookstore revealed themselves to each other - omg that got me right in the heart.
Great little details too - Ali wearing a Fire Island sweatshirt (they referenced FI in dialogue too!), the oldest sister singing a psychedelic furs song in a flashback. I also really love the opening credits. Will probably finish this today. "Four out of five Pfeffermands now prefer pussy."

Oh and idk who she is but the lady playing Tammy is hot.

when is the new series when when when

IMDB sez Friday December 4th.

Too long boooooo.

^^^ this

Second season pilot is up on Amazon and it's very very good.
Rest of the episodes go up on Dec 11 I think.

Kleinkunst references!

Thought that was an amazing episode. The scene with the wedding photographer. And the Berlin 1933 vignette. And that final scene taking in the windows of the hotel rooms.

i wouldn't have imagined that the hottest sex scene on film this year would be jeffrey tambor fingerbanging judith light and yet

i don't know about that, but season 2 is EXCELLENT.

love the way they gradually bring the 1933 stuff in and connect it to the present

especially in the episode with the forest gathering. that was just amazing.

four eps in and it's excellent. but so so sad.

like, i just ache for these characters, mostly, and all the unhappiness they suffer or bring into their worlds.

three eps in they continue to pretty much one and all be horrible people, except maybe for the rabbi.
i liked the bit where she had to confront the shitty behavior he engaged in at college.

Kolten is not a bad person!

and actually, i think the main characters are much more sympathetic this season. but i'll wait til you finish the rest to talk about it.

love this show

koulten worries me, like there's a well-shrouded, dangerous interior void that's gonna culminate with him trying to fuck the rabbi or burn the house down

lol i was thinking he might shoot up that school "ripped from the headlines"

three eps in they continue to pretty much one and all be horrible people, except maybe for the rabbi.

this is true, though it doesn't dim my sympathy for them. so many amazing scenes so far - the bathtub "sex" scene was just heart-breaking. sarah just floating through like a miserable ghostly wreck, perhaps the *worst* person of the bunch, but still tragic. won't say more because don't want to spoiler anything, but what a show.

Was just reading Steve Erickson on this and spluttered out my coffee in agreement:

<q>The show is less terrific when we’re subjected to Maura’s children, who—I swear on the lives of my own children—are the single most off-putting family in any history of television that stretches from the Ewings of Dallas to the Lyons of Empire... you’re also left figuring that maybe Maura has become a woman just so no one will know she fathered the almost supernaturally unlikable people around her. </q>

http://www.lamag.com/steveerickson/the-danish-girl-and-the-transgender-movement/

Ah fuck yes. I just watched s2 e1-3 and I wanted to punch the son so badly. They are the worst, all three of them.

s2 was pretty good. some of the execution of the 30s stuff felt wonky to me but it landed in the finale. the whole thing felt a bit slight compared to s1 for some reason, like it was half a story.

wow that's great, I didn't realize they were going to do a filmed version of this and it seemed a sad way for the series to go out without closure.

well i certainly didn't see this coming
https://www.vulture.com/2019/06/jill-soloway-replaces-bryan-singer-as-red-sonja-director.html

hahaha

so the finale for this debuted and seems to have gotten zero attention. I just stumbled on it the other night and, while I was fucking stoned as I am always when watching TV at 10pm, I thought it was exceptional. searched up reviews and it looks like that's a minority opinion but I thought this was a good way to go out.

i watched this just the other day. i liked it overall, but didn't like the musical portions, which was too bad, because it's a musical! i think it was well done, it's just not my thing (note: i do not like glee).

it was interesting as a structure, though, because it allowed the show to hit a bunch of final season/closure kind of points all in one episode, in a way that made sense within the framework of a musical.

it was actually less of a musical than I was expecting. i thought there'd be no dialogue at all.